Belgium Grand Prix 2008 ***SPOILERS***

Rodrigo007 Wrote:
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> [www.dailymotion.com]
> magcom-hamiltonkimi_sport
>
>
> whole video, we also see Hami went off track
> together with Kimi but managed to get in track
> faster than him , also
> we see clearly Rorberg (i think) recovering from
> a spin, then Kimi tries to catch Hami , seems he
> got too nervous and overtook the backmarker by the
> escape area, so we know how it ended...


Fantastic video, thanks for posting

Amazing how one video tells the entire story with no words of explanation needed...

Damn you Rosberg, damn you! Nah, Kimi did get a bit overzealous there, and should've been more defensive on that penultimate lap. But he must've been understandably quite tense after Hamilton passed him "illegally" the previous lap.

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gav Wrote:
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>
> Still struggling to see why Massa didn't pit for
> wet tyres. Lewis had something to lose, but Massa
> wasn't going to lose 2nd to Bordais by diving into
> the pits. Easy in hindsight I guess, and I'm sure
> Ferrari had plenty of things on their mind at that
> point.
>

Yes, for me this is THE big question of the weekend, and highlights Ferrari's current strategical weakness. I guess Massa had pretty much already thrown in the towel at that point, and being so bad in the wet probably felt there was just no chance.
He was only 7 or so seconds behind Kimi/Hamilton at the end of that lap too.

"But he must've been understandably quite tense after Hamilton passed him "illegally" the previous lap."
- Karan

This is another thing that seems to have been missed, Kimi must have been very agitated to say the least! LOL.

Ferrari must win at Monza now to silence Mclaren. There is no alternative.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 03:32AM by Razorsedge.

There is a precedent for exactly the same incident. In Japan 2005, Alonso overtook Klien cutting the chicane. Inmediately, he let Klien pass but he stayed so close that by the end of the main straight he could pass Klien again. Some laps later he had to slow down until Klien passed him again to avoid a penalty. Was exactly the same, just that it was not a fight for the first place.

My solution is: No chicanes with tarmac. Grass or gravel. Many drivers would avoid such actions, because Hamilton wouldn't have been there if the chicane had grass or gravel. The track has a chicane, if you cut the chicane you are simply not "respecting" the track. Kimi did it, Hamilton didn't and it's obvious that he took advantage of that. But now a lot of british media is complaining..."Is F1 an sport??", but they didn't complain that much in 2006 or 2007 with Alonso penalties.

Later though Alonso was told that was a mistake and he did not have to let him pass again and they said sorry for it, so other people have said on here.

Nico also caused lewis to go off yet no one has even mentioned that! Kimi has even said he went off due to his error.

Why dont you all blame god for making it rain as thats what caused Kimi to loose the race. He would not have been angry as Ferrari would have already told him lewis broke the rules from their eyes. And your missing the point that kimi got the lead back and spun so he was probably trying to make up for that.

Stop making reasons for the spin of kimi.

All the rule says is you must give the place back, had kimi not broke so early lewis would have have passed him and had kimi not moved over and done that silly double block move lewis would not have passed him.

If that had been MS or a ferrari driver that made that move a lot of people complaining would have had no problem with it, they would have said good move just like in hungry the other year when they saw nothing wrong in what MS done. Total double standards.

Also kimi could have come back on track earlier just like lewis did but chose not to and made up about a second on him.

If you are going to apply all the rules like people seem want done then kimi should have got one after monaco, then lewis would not have hit him in the pits and kimi would not have been there and he sould not have been in that lane anyway. Massa would get a penalty for that pit stop in spain. Kovy would have got a penalty in monaco as well, lewis would have in Barahin kimi would have in australia. If there was nothing wrong with the pitstop why did ferrari get a fine?

Ali the press did say in 2006 with the alonso penalty in Monza that it was not right. They backed alonso 100%. Even in Spain they are saying the lewis penalty was wrong.

And no one knows if lewis would have passed kimi anyway into the 1st corner, kimi had no traction coming onto the start finish straight and lewis had already gained 3 seconds in a few corners.

Its done now move on massa got the win lewis got a penalty just a shame he did not do the drive through after the race had completed like another driver did in 1998

I do hope they find that ferrari engine to be illegal that would shut alot of people up, but even if it is illegal we will never know.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 11:28AM by marcl.

marcl Wrote:
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> All the rule says is you must give the place back,
> had kimi not broke so early lewis would have have
> passed him and had kimi not moved over and done
> that silly double block move lewis would not have
> passed him.

No, the rules state that you cannot gain an advantage. Nothing about giving places back.


marcl Wrote:
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> And no one knows if lewis would have passed kimi
> anyway into the 1st corner, kimi had no traction
> coming onto the start finish straight and lewis
> had already gained 3 seconds in a few corners.

So settle back in behind him then... anyway, Lewis hadn't gained 3 seconds at all. By the time they got to Pouhon they were only 1.0 to 1.5 seconds apart, and that includes Kimi completely cocking up Les Combes.


marcl Wrote:
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> Its done now move on massa got the win lewis got a
> penalty just a shame he did not do the drive
> through after the race had completed like another
> driver did in 1998

I love how you keep saying "it's done, move on", yet keep on disagreeing with people afterwards, kicking up the same old, then saying it once more, as if you expect yours to be the last comment on the matter.

marcl Wrote:
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> Later though Alonso was told that was a mistake
> and he did not have to let him pass again and they
> said sorry for it, so other people have said on
> here.

That year, 2005, they made other stupid decisions also. At Monza, Kimi cut the first chicane when he was trying to overtake Alonso. He let him pass and got the slipstream more or less like Lewis did to him at Spa and overtook Alonso at the 2nd chicane. Alonso at the end of the race said that Kimi shouldn't have done that, but the FIA said nothing about it. (Remember that Kimi was driving for McLaren at that time).

Then, when Alonso did the same at Suzuka, Renault thought it was ilegal and said to Alonso to give the position back to Klien, but the stewards according to the Monza decision said that Alonso had done nothing wrong.

But I still think that those 2 manouvres were illegal like Hamilton's at Spa.

As I said before its ok saying all that now but at the time drivers have to make split seconds decsions and thats whay he chose. Charlie said to Ron what they done was ok. Other people have said what they done is ok.

I was looking at the difference in the 2nd sector, lewis was 4 secs back from what I can remember.

Good point requenov that just shows how inconcistant the rule is applied. Going by them 2 things lewis should not have got the penalty as people had not in the past, it was ok to do them then just dont do them to a red car.

I know what you mean gav though this is my last comment on the pass thing I am moving on from that as everyone is seeing that different even old f1 drivers are saying the penalty is wrong.

But now people are saying nico should get a penalty for causing kimi to spin out the race but fail to mention he also caused lewis to go off the track. That let kimi take the lead back in the race, he then spun that lead away and that bit is being over looked. Kimi has not mentioned nico once he said it was his error.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 12:38PM by marcl.

marcl Wrote:
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> As I said before its ok saying all that now but at
> the time drivers have to make split seconds
> decsions and thats whay he chose. Charlie said to
> Ron what they done was ok. Other people have said
> what they done is ok.
>
> I was looking at the difference in the 2nd sector,
> lewis was 4 secs back from what I can remember.
>
> Good point requenov that just shows how
> inconcistant the rule is applied. Going by them 2
> things lewis should not have got the penalty as
> people had not in the past, it was ok to do them
> then just dont do them to a red car.
>
> I know what you mean gav though this is my last
> comment on the pass thing I am moving on from
> that as everyone is seeing that different even old
> f1 drivers are saying the penalty is wrong.
>
> But now people are saying nico should get a
> penalty for causing kimi to spin out the race but
> fail to mention he also caused lewis to go off the
> track. That let kimi take the lead back in the
> race, he then spun that lead away and that bit is
> being over looked. Kimi has not mentioned nico
> once he said it was his error.


Sorry but I'm not saying that Hamilton shouldnt have got the penalty, he should.

The thing is that Kimi was 20 or more points behind Alonso in the WDC that year and if they had penalized Kimi the championship had been decided almost in that race(with 4 races remaining) although finally Kimi only got 4th in that race. But he should have got the penalty.

In Hungary Michael was 10 points behind Alonso and he wasn't penalized either. And IIRC he got 1 point at the end. But he should have been penalized.

I think FIA put some penalties depending on the WDC Table to try to get maximum audience in the final races.

I think marc that you should be a little bit less biased and try to defend Hamilton objectively.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 12:50PM by requenov.

marcl Wrote:
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> Later though Alonso was told that was a mistake
> and he did not have to let him pass again and they
> said sorry for it, so other people have said on
> here.


That's what James Allen reported in the commentary. Alonso let Klien back through on the straight and the official answer was no, you have let him past without potential for passing him seconds later, so Alonso let him pass again and apparently, shortly thereafter, another email came to the effect that the original no was wrong.

The Hamilton penalty at Spa was deserved. The speed with which he chose to cut the chicane did not look like he was forced to due to track conditions. He gained an advantage AND passed Kimi as a result. Granted Kimi could have made it harder.

This is tenuous, but when Kimi later chose to stay on the run off while Lewis rejoined the track, he also gained an advantage, but appeared to lose it just as Lewis appeared to due to the conditions, but didn't pass Lewis as a direct result. When you see drivers make a mistake, they seem to be allowed to take the most optimal line for rejoining the track, even if it means a long meander around the park.

Kimi messed up on his own. The only thing Rosberg did was cause Lewis to give up the lead. Kimi just had to get on the brakes sooner than was useful.

As for the pit lane dramas, as long as a driver does not petard the exit speed of another, let them race through the pits at the regulated speed. It's a race after all.

Sorry I did not mean you were saying that he should not have got a penalty I worded that badly.

All I was saying was these things have happened in the past and no penalty was given.

People that feel lewis should have got a penalty feel that as there was no time in the race to do the drive through it should have been a grid penalty at the next race, thats on Pitpass btw.

I just do not see the problem in what lewis done, its no worse than I have seen before when no penalty was handed out and I dont think that is biased at all.

We all have different views which is fine. I just dont see how you can give 1 driver a penalty for doing something which has been done in the past and nothing was done.

And yes I have posted again even though I said i would not I just wanted to clear up my last post.

mcdo Wrote:
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> This is tenuous, but when Kimi later chose to stay
> on the run off while Lewis rejoined the track, he
> also gained an advantage, but appeared to lose it
> just as Lewis appeared to due to the conditions,
> but didn't pass Lewis as a direct result. When you
> see drivers make a mistake, they seem to be
> allowed to take the most optimal line for
> rejoining the track, even if it means a long
> meander around the park.

If he had passed Lewis it would have been legal cause they both have gone out the track and there is no rule that says "you must wait the driver in front of you to rejoin when both have gone out of the track."

Think about 2 drivers who spun at the same corner, and there is gravel instead of run-off area. The second driver is not obliged to wait for the 1st one to recover. What happened last Sunday it's the same example.

The problem remains in the run-off areas. THEY SHOULD CHANGE THEM ALL FOR GRAVEL or something similar to prevent these discussions. Even at Pouhon or other fast corners. Drivers are not penalized for missing corners, like we saw at Spa, and that give us artificial races.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 01:01PM by requenov.

If kimi passed lewis it would have been illegal as lewis was back on the race track at that point.

If kimi passed lewis with them both on the run off then I think that would have been legal.

But kimi close over a second and got closer to lewis by staying on the run off longer.

marcl schreef:
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> If kimi passed lewis it would have been illegal as
> lewis was back on the race track at that point.
>
> If kimi passed lewis with them both on the run off
> then I think that would have been legal.
>
> But kimi close over a second and got closer to
> lewis by staying on the run off longer.


cutting the track is always seen as an advantage, though running wide isnt an advantage, you lose time to the normal corner, that hamilton chose to go on track as soon as possible is his error, he could have chosen to go the same path as kimi, the rules dont say its illegal to do that.

TC Wrote:
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>


>
> No one got a penalty then.

Already been discussed more than once.

1 - Schumacher retired, and you can't penalise someone with a drive through penalty when they aren't in the race.

2 - Keeping a position is not the same as making a pass. These incidents are not directly comparable.

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marcl Wrote:
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> If kimi passed lewis it would have been illegal as
> lewis was back on the race track at that point.
>
> If kimi passed lewis with them both on the run off
> then I think that would have been legal.
>
> But kimi close over a second and got closer to
> lewis by staying on the run off longer.

That's true, I think. I'm not really sure, but that's the problem of run-off areas, that NOBODY knows 100% sure.

MS did retire but the penalty can be taken in the form of a grid penalty to the next race. Same happened to massa in Italy in his 1st year at Sauber, he caused a crash and also retired but was given a 10 place grid penalty for the next race he was then replaced by hhf.

Its been said in the past you can not keep a position but cutting the corner, pedro had got to the inside MS should have backed off what he done was against the rules pedro was passed him.

MS should have given pedro the place but did not. Had there been a wall there MS would have been out.

As people have said replace the tarmac at chicanes with grass or gravel and it would stop all this.

Running wide can be an advantage as the surface is high grip, lewis lost time coming back on to the track kimi lost no time at all had he passed into that corner he would surly have had to give the place back.

What I find a bit strange is the start of lap 2, lewis spun kimi took to the escape part of the tarmac how did lewis get going again still ahead of him? I am sure kimi passed him.

Dave you have not said anything about the penalty yet from what I can see what do you think of it? Just like gav and a few others on here I respect your views.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 01:42PM by marcl.

MS did retire but the penalty can be taken in the form of a grid penalty to the next race. Same happened to massa in Italy in his 1st year at Sauber, he caused a crash and also retired but was given a 10 place grid penalty for the next race he was then replaced by hhf.

Skipping the track is not a position drop penalty.

Causing an accident and skipping the course are not the same violation of the rules and do not carry the same punishment.

Running wide can be an advantage as the surface is high grip, lewis lost time coming back on to the track kimi lost no time at all had he passed into that corner he would surly have had to give the place back.

We have already addressed that. To suggest either Kimi or Lewis gained an advantage from having an off at Pouhon is stupid. Neither of them tried to go gain an advantage - they were simply trying not to have a large accident. The bus stop, Lewis made the decision to cut the course when he had other options. These situations cannot be compared.

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[www.myvideo.at]

Alex Wurz thought it could be a penalty when doing live play by play for ORF when Lewis overtook Kimi in turn 1.
"I wouldn't do that in Hamilton's place"

---

GPGSL career;
Current team: Team ShadowSubaru, Previous teams: MPR, Minardi
starts:100 Wins: 12, Podiums: 34, Fastest Laps: 14, poles: 12 Points: 708
winner of Belgian GP (s1), Australian GP (s1), Canadian GP (S1), Brazilian GP(s4, s5), Hungarian GP(s3), Italian GP(s3), French GP (s5,s7), Monaco GP (s4) and USA GP

BAR#10 Wrote:
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> [www.myvideo.at]
>
> Alex Wurz thought it could be a penalty when doing
> live play by play for ORF when Lewis overtook Kimi
> in turn 1.
> "I wouldn't do that in Hamilton's place"


De la Rosa said the same in Spain. Remember he's his teammate. More or less he said: "Lewis is on the limit of legality".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 02:13PM by requenov.

Trulli also says that Lewis gained an advantage. Says the man who caused a Williams to use the run off by spinning the car round infront of him

I do have to agree though had there been a wall there or gravel lewis would have backed off or he would have been out the race, so if that is how they are looking at it then a penalty is fair but as said a drive through would have probably given lewis 2nd not third but I fully understand 25 seconds is what is in the rules and there was no enough time to give the proper penalty which is why it should have been a grid drop at the next race. This though does send out a message to everyone.

So yes sorry Gav you were right.

[www.autosport.com]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 02:59PM by marcl.