Where did it go wrong for Massa?

Been watching the season reviews on sky F1 and I forgot just how good Massa was.

So, where did it go wrong...

Spring in the head?

Slick tyres?

Switch to Pirelli?

Alonso?

Or any other reason(s)?

IMO I pin it on, well all of them! In 2007 and 2008 when he looked quite a force, especially in 2008 it was clear that a driver did not need to be as precise as now IMO. Lewis drove his car all over the place yet still got the time. Come to 2009 and specific drivers excel (maybe due to car too!).. Button, and Vettel look supreme and they are certainly two of the most precise drivers in the field, Rubens was too.

So was it that the Bridgestone grooves were so versatile that they could handle all sorts of loads in different directions, and a driver like Massa could literally point and squirt (LOL) and hope for the best?

Just curious to hear your thoughts on what has been the downfall of the closest non WDC there has been to being a WDC.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Clearly the tyres are a big difference. I remember back when they started testing the tyres and narrower cars in 1998 and some drivers were saying that cars were all over the place, bordering on feeling dangerous. Clearly not all down to the tyres, but you have to assume that they had some part to play. The rubber was much, much harder to cope with the grooves. It must have been a big change. That and there's been more grip at the front of the car since they went back to slicks.

Still, I think good drivers can always adapt to change, and Massa's issue is in his head. He hasn't looked the same driver since Hungary, but that's probably more to do with the time spent out of the car and Alonso coming in that winter. We know how relentless Alonso is, so it's got to be difficult to drive alongside him and not look crap, especially for an already established driver.

It would be interested to see how he'd react if he had a run of a strong finishes (challenging for podiums) and whether it is just a confidence thing.

Massa is an ok driver... Just not ultimately one of the best. And not many drivers would look good against Alonso.

His form's gone downhill since Schumacher left Ferrari as a 'consultant'...coincidence?

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

I don't think the accident affected him very much, otherwise he wouldn't even dare to get into a street car. He, as any racing driver, assumes danger as part of the sport.

The switch to slick tyres may have affected him a little, perhaps the switch to Pirelli affected him a bit more, but not so much.

The true reason is the return to the silly policy Ferrari has, only one driver recieves the best machinery. During the Massa-Raikkonen years, you could see that both had similar equipment, and although they helped only one of them ultimately (Kimi in 07 and Felipe in 08), both could keep up to the other one's speed. Since 2010 the gap between he and Alonso is huge, and we all know Fernando can't stand a tough teammate. Sad, because they are letting the driver who has been loyal to Ferrari since 2003 be the slave of the one who was involved in the Spygate some years ago.

To sum up, the reason why Felipe is bad now for me, is psicological. A seat switch between he and Perez woluld benefit both, IMO.



Stats: 139 Starts / 7 Wins / 9 Poles / 5 Fastest laps

untill hockenheim 2010 both drivers were doing well at ferrari. True, alonso had a victory, but assuming the results from the german gp were not manipoulated by team orders, massa would be appr. 15-25 points behind alonso. Now, in the old system this means between 6 and 10 points. This, at mid season is definately not too much. However, the team manipulated the results, massa lost out to nando, and the rest is now history. I still remember the words of Rob Smedley: " That was very very magnanamous fellippe ... Felippe Massa is Back". What he did not know is that fellippe massa was not back. Actually this was the end of him and really, the last strong race we saw from the brazilian.

I totally forgot about Hockenhiem! If we assume a lot of the problem is in his head, combined with tyres, then that incident must be a large part of the reason!

I too think Massa should either change sport, or switch team. Not because I do not think he is not good enough for Ferrari or F1, but that a switch to a completely new environment will only be good.

Another point I didn't consider was the mental blow of 2008. Like I said, he came as close you can get to a WDC. I can't say completely having not been in any kind of similar situation but that must even still play heavily on his mind. Compare it to 2010 with Alonso and Webber. They lost due to strategic error. In 2008 Massa lost due to luck, pure luck. Either way you look at it, Lewis is the luckiest world champ EVER, and Massa is the unluckiest runner up EVER.

Had Massa won the title I do not believe he would be in this situation. Had he won at Hockenheim, again I think the rest of the season and 2011 might have played out differently.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Massa and Rob, albeit briefly. I like Massa, and I know he isn't on the same level as the top guys but he is not far behind at all. I hope he can soon find his feet again because it's almost painful to watch a driver go through such situations.

This year everybody is struggling with tyres in some way or another, so at least either by luck of getting the tyres to work, or whatever I hope he can bag some confidence boosting results. One thing's for sure. With Turkey off the calender he will always be the Istanbul genius!

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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>In 2008 Massa lost due to
> luck, pure luck. Either way you look at it, Lewis
> is the luckiest world champ EVER, and Massa is the
> unluckiest runner up EVER.


I can't say that I agree. The final deciding minute, where Lewis went past Timo Glock on the final corner, might have been luck, but the vast majority of the season, and the prep-work leading into the season, was not. Stretching the experience of the last corner on the last lap, into the entire span of those 10 months of so (and for the engineers probably 15 months!) is not reasonable or fair.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

chet Wrote:
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> Another point I didn't consider was the mental
> blow of 2008. Like I said, he came as close you
> can get to a WDC. I can't say completely having
> not been in any kind of similar situation but that
> must even still play heavily on his mind. Compare
> it to 2010 with Alonso and Webber. They lost due
> to strategic error. In 2008 Massa lost due to
> luck, pure luck. Either way you look at it, Lewis
> is the luckiest world champ EVER, and Massa is the
> unluckiest runner up EVER.

I disagree. In fact I think Singapore 2008 would've had a far greater impact on him than Brazil. What happened in Brazil was just a part of racing, but to have indirectly lost a crucial win due to race fixing... That must be a hard pill to swallow, and no wonder Massa finds it hard to talk to Piquet Jr. any more.

Also, you can see from his great performances in early 2009 that he wasn't affected by the end of 2008.

Anyway, Massa's never really had a great deal of luck since 2007. Webber's luck finally turned around in 2010, so maybe Massa's will one day as well.

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X (@ed24f1)

Ye in the early part of 2009 he was doing much better than Kimi (on average) and then you see what Kimi did in the second half of the season. Imagine if a pre-suspension-spring Felipe was driving in the latter half of 2009 ....

I remember reading his first interview after surgery and he watched Hungary and said - that race was mine! Obviously knowing he had Kimi beaten and therefore could have challenged for the win.

I fully believe that the accident did it. Straight from FP1 at Sakhir in 2010 he was a shadow of himself. He only out qualled Alonso cos Fernando ****** up his Q3 lap. He was 0.5 quicker for most of the weekend.

Additionaly - many struggle to beat Fernando, in the same car he can perform miracles, see Schumacher in the shite Ferraris of 96-99. There were more than 1 occassion when he beat Irvine by 1.5 in qual.

Fernando is a better driver than Massa at this stage in their careers this I feel, coupled with a particularly @#$%& F2012, is helping the perception that Massa is awful. I think put Button, Senna or Petrov - or anyone of the No.2 drivers in the teams - into the F2012 and they'd be as slow compared to Nando as Massa is.

He needs a dominant F2013 or a different team/team-mate to really judge if there's anything really wrong. To ever get within 0.3 of Alonso in the same car (at this stage of his career) is a massive bonus, the press seem to forget this. I.E. - Smedley at China Q2 - he got within 0.3 of Nando and Smedderz said - What a lap, excellent. You have to be happy with what YOU can do I think tbh. At some stage you have to accept you're not as quick and just work on yourself.


To sum up as a Ferrari fan, I feel he isn't the same driver as he was in 09 however he's not as bad as everyone makes out, Alonso is just shadowing him

Besides Alonso probably having a lot of pull within the team (being the best F1 driver helps get that), the issue with heat on the tires has to be one of the leading factors for Massa.

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >In 2008 Massa lost due to
> > luck, pure luck. Either way you look at it,
> Lewis
> > is the luckiest world champ EVER, and Massa is
> the
> > unluckiest runner up EVER.
>
>
> I can't say that I agree. The final deciding
> minute, where Lewis went past Timo Glock on the
> final corner, might have been luck, but the vast
> majority of the season, and the prep-work leading
> into the season, was not. Stretching the
> experience of the last corner on the last lap,
> into the entire span of those 10 months of so (and
> for the engineers probably 15 months!) is not
> reasonable or fair.

I suppose you are right. It took alot of work to get there, but ultimately what decided the championship was when it rained.

There were a lot of factors leading to that race that you could argue effected the championship, but in the end it was weather (the worlds biggest variable?) that it came down to.

It was not lucky that they got where the were, but luck (bad or good) played a huge part in the result.

I am not saying it was lucky that Ferrari and Mclaren built good enough cars, I am saying it was lucky or equally unlucky that rain came at the moment. For that given point in time, luck was decider.

Anyway, he seems to be on his way up. Was not a bad race in Canada, showed promise and that's what matters at this stage.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

chet Wrote:
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> Lewis is the luckiest world champ EVER, and Massa is the unluckiest runner up EVER.


I guess you forgot 2007 season. Lewis was even more unlucky than Massa was in 2008 and Kimi even luckier world champion than Lewis in 2008.

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?

IWE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lewis is the luckiest world champ EVER, and
> Massa is the unluckiest runner up EVER.
>
>
> I guess you forgot 2007 season. Lewis was even
> more unlucky than Massa was in 2008 and Kimi even
> luckier world champion than Lewis in 2008.

There's no way that Lewis lost more points in 2007 than Massa did. You can't really say China was bad luck, and maybe Brazil was, but even so that's only a few net points lost whereas Massa lost tens of points in Hungary, Singapore, Australia, Canada etc.

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X (@ed24f1)

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can't say that I agree. The final deciding
> minute, where Lewis went past Timo Glock on the
> final corner, might have been luck, but the vast
> majority of the season, and the prep-work leading
> into the season, was not. Stretching the
> experience of the last corner on the last lap,
> into the entire span of those 10 months of so (and
> for the engineers probably 15 months!) is not
> reasonable or fair.


Not lack of luck by Massa, it was lack of quality by Ferrari on 2 pitstops. Massa's Silverstone's performance was awful but that can be canceled out with his engine blow in the very end of that one race. Renault's dirty work could be seen as lack of luck (like his engine going boom) but the botched pitstop cost more than anything.

Lets be honest Lewis should have won the championship way before Brazil but made some stupid errors in the year and had the FIA give out penalties that other drivers failed to get.

Canada rammed Kimi, yes totally stupid.
France got a grid penalty when even Webber said Lewis did not hold him up at all. Then got a penalty for passing Vettel and running wide even though the pass was done way before the turn.
Spa, got a penalty after the race even though he gave the place back to kimi and race control said it was ok. But kimi passed him later anyway then crashed. For me that was still a tough one.

Yes Massa had problems that year, some his driving and some the teams problems but over the whole year Lewis did do the better job and did not need his team mate to help him.

Thats the same thing the year before as well when Massa let kimi win in Brazil and moved over in China.

It went wrong for Massa when Alonso joined, Ferrari have always had a fav and look after them more. Massa is a good driver and can win a race when the car is the best, but I dont think he can get the best out of a car when its not the best a bit like Button tbh.

Massa still makes mistakes like a new driver which is strange and in 2011 the whole lewis and massa thing got stupid and massa let it get to him far to much.

IWE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lewis is the luckiest world champ EVER, and
> Massa is the unluckiest runner up EVER.
>
>
> I guess you forgot 2007 season. Lewis was even
> more unlucky than Massa was in 2008 and Kimi even
> luckier world champion than Lewis in 2008.

Really?

2007 was dictated by team politics, and the only result of that was neither driving winning, and Ferrari taking the honours. My post ignores what happened throughout the season because in the end it came down to one corner out of millions in 2008.

2007 was more complicated but in terms of the end result, there was a lot less luck IMO. Alonso and Lewis, sorry MCLAREN threw it away.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

marcl Wrote:
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> Canada rammed Kimi, yes totally stupid.
> France got a grid penalty when even Webber said
> Lewis did not hold him up at all. Then got a
> penalty for passing Vettel and running wide even
> though the pass was done way before the turn.
> Spa, got a penalty after the race even though he
> gave the place back to kimi and race control said
> it was ok. But kimi passed him later anyway then
> crashed. For me that was still a tough one.

Err, Hamilton's grid penalty in France was for taking Raikkonen out in Canada not for holding up Webber...

Even if you add up all of Hamilton's lost points it was still less than Massa's. Let's assume Lewis would've been 3rd in France (that is quite generous), 1st in Spa (I believe that was a fair penalty, but for the sake of this point...) and Massa finished 3rd in China - that would result in Hamilton gaining 10 points and Massa losing 4. So in this hypothetical Hamilton would've won by 7.

Then you consider Massa's lost points in Australia (3pts), Canada (2pts - again a pessimistic view as Massa probably could've beaten Heidfeld as well), Hungary (10pts and Lewis -1), Singapore (10pts and Lewis -1). Massa could've won by 20 points. Chuck in a penalty at Fuji for Massa and Hamilton's puncture at Hungary if you want, and he's still ahead. Obviously this doesn't mean much now, but I don't think it's fair to say that Hamilton should've won the title earlier, and that it was only the FIA that kept Massa close.


> Yes Massa had problems that year, some his driving
> and some the teams problems but over the whole
> year Lewis did do the better job and did not need
> his team mate to help him.

Well Kovalainen did let him by pretty easily at Hockenheim, but not on the scale of China I guess.

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X (@ed24f1)

Yes sorry he got the grid penalty in France the year after I think it was for holiding up Webber.

Tbh there are so many ifs and buts in every sport.

At the end of the day Kimi won in 2007 and Lewis in 2008, both won them and both deserved them.

Breaks downs etc have always been part of the game as have pit stop problems.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 04:46PM by marcl.

marcl Wrote:
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> Yes sorry he got the grid penalty in France the
> year after I think it was for holiding up Webber.
>
> Tbh there are so many ifs and buts in every
> sport.
>
> At the end of the day Kimi won in 2007 and Lewis
> in 2008, both won them and both deserved them.
>
> Breaks downs etc have always been part of the game
> as have pit stop problems.

Of course. That's why I was saying earlier that the circumstances that led to the Singapore problem, in that it was pure cheating, must be particularly hard for Massa to come to terms with. You can expect to have break downs or whatever, but to be affected by something as disgraceful as that is something else entirely.

Sorry for the slightly petulant tone before as well.

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X (@ed24f1)