Monza is gone

Subtitle might as well read: F1 is dead

A horrible weekend for F1 with the farce of qualifying, and now, according the Automobile Club d'Italia, Monza have terminated discussions with FOM after Bernie wasn't happy with moves made to better accommodate the World Superbikes.

Unless we have a stunning race tomorrow, FOM's stocks (if they have floated)will be more entertaining than the on-track action come Monday.


If Monza has gone F1 might as well fold now. Ferrari could well pull out at the end of 2017 - the only saving grace is their increasing ties in the middle east and America. The tracks are @#$%& (Melbourne is obviously one of the better ones, so Bahrain and Sepang (not the worst tracks) are going to be pitiful), qualifying is a complete farce and, as Morbid said in the 2016 thread, the "least poor" of two ideas is being pushed aside with the worst idea (success penalties) looking the likely to replace it. The future looks bleak with faster cars (good) making for worse races (bad), and even those changes are half-arsed because no agreement can be reached to give Pirelli a car to test the tyres with.

What can I say Gav? We rarely agree on anything, but Monza gone is a death blow. Luckily Bernie's plans has been thwarted, and we are back to 2015 quals. Let's see if Bernie can sustain the game of chicken with Monza.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

i think i heard somewhere in this weekend's coverage that Imola will be back next year in Monza's place? any truth to this?

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Monza hasn't been interesting since the 90s; I'd happily trade it for Imola, which would be a much better fit for F1 as it is today.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2016 08:32PM by Incident 2k9.

Apparently a verbal agreement has been reached between Monza organizers and Bernie.

There are some layout changes planned for 2017: First chicane would be removed and the Curva Grande would be replaced. Cars would take the old Pirelli track that is not used since the 50s i think, then a left right turn to return at the exit of the actual Curva Grande. Also, gravel on Parabolica would be back !



Source: *Clicky*

I´d welcome this changes, and I think I read somewhere that Vettel tested it in a simulator and he loved it. Lets see what happens

While it would be a shame to lose Curva Grande, I think overall these changes aren't too bad and will once again increase the average speed of the circuit

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X (@ed24f1)

Quote
Frantic
Cars would take the old Pirelli track that is not used since the 50s i think, then a left right turn to return at the exit of the actual Curva Grande.

It never dawned on me that it was the (really) old short circuit! I've read loads of guides of Monza and that old corner is even on the Grand Prix Legends version of Monza, but it never came across my mind that they'd repurpose it when I read this - it makes perfect sense when you consider how controversial the felling of any number of trees are in Monza.

I like the changes. I've always disliked the modern first chicane when I could see no problem with the Rettifilo, a much more challenging, unique and fulfilling chicane. Depending on how quick the new chicane is (it looks moderately quick - 3rd gear perhaps) it could be a bit reminiscent of the start of Le Mans, which is no bad thing.

Same for me, Gav, only this morning I realised that it followed the old track. It was a bit of a "durr, you stupid fool for not realising" moment!

If anything, I reckon that chicane will be similar to the ones we had at Mangy Cours (and they were fantastic, I thought). Mind you, looking at the diagram, it looks exactly like the first part of the Ascari chicane, and we all know how fast that is. I imagine that to get the best line for the new first chicane, you'll have to compromise your line through turn 1, so I reckon we'll see plenty of cars side-by-side.

If you ask me, anything's better than the current T1. I can't stand that corner, although admittedly it has served up some memorable out-braking manoeuvres - the one that always stuck in my mind was Hamilton in 2007. I'm happy with these changes, it looks like a hell of a ballsy first corner to me, and I think it'll bring back some of the flow of the circuit.

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the pre 2000 first chicane was amazing. now they made that curve dreary.

Now, with this new configuration I´m already imaging cars full throttle straight from the Parabolica, overtaking at 350+kph in the first curve, from the outside. Im shivering from just thinking that.

Its like they want to retake the fastest circuit record (now held by Mexico GP). they actually decided not to remove the second chicane just because there is no room for adding more run-off space in the Lesmos.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2016 05:45AM by Frantic.

gav Wrote:
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> it could be a bit
> reminiscent of the start of Le Mans, which is no
> bad thing.

My thoughts exactly!


flat tyre Wrote:
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> If you ask me, anything's better than the current T1.

I like the current chicane more than its previous incarnation - it at least allows opening it up and running down to the Curva Grande flat out whereas the double-chicane version did not let the drivers do that. (Audi often takes this opportunity in preparation for Le Mans, perhaps even as I type.)

Frantic Wrote:
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> Its like they want to retake the fastest circuit
> record (now held by Mexico GP).

Good point.

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That alteration looks very impressive - would result in higher speed and a lot more flow throughout the lap, even with three sets of chicanes. Really hope this is happening.

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I'd like to see Imola return, it is a beautiful place. I loved watching F1 the last few years they went there and it's a great circuit to drive around (in computer games anyway ). And now that the circuit from Rivazza to Variante Tamburello is a flat out blast there should be more chances to overtake than there were before.

Monza is a bit dull in comparison, long straights with slow chicanes, it's not that exciting really. Ever since the regulations were tightened up with the engine freezes and so forth it has not been as special a place for F1 as it used to be.

It's the stable aero and power steering that makes Monza a bit more sedate than it used to be. The cars used to dart around on the straights both there and at Hockenheim, but not the cars are so planted, even with the trimmed wings, that they look so much slower. In reality they're just as fast in a straight line now as they used to be.

gav Wrote:
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> It's the stable aero and power steering that makes
> Monza a bit more sedate than it used to be. The
> cars used to dart around on the straights both
> there and at Hockenheim, but not the cars are so
> planted, even with the trimmed wings, that they
> look so much slower. In reality they're just as
> fast in a straight line now as they used to be.


You are probably right about the aero but I am not so sure you are right about the power steering. I am pretty sure that power steering was being used in F1 sometime before I started watching and in my earlier years of watching on TV the cars seemed much quicker and on the edge compared with the last few years.

Gav has a point, the cars are so well balanced today that Monza no longer looks like the challenge it is.

The end of the V10 era has gradually made the cars look like they're on rails.

If you've seen the onboard footage of Montoya setting the fastest ever lap there in the BMW Williams you know that the circuit layout is not the problem. He was on the very limit of adhesion for the whole lap and I'm still surprised that he didn't crash.

Watch 90s footage of the race and you'll see as Gav describes cars twitching, sliding around and visibly being far closer to the edge. And that's what I love about Monza and the old Hockenheim the cars constantly looked on the verge of being out of control, visibly moving around under braking and wheel-spinning under acceleration.

Unfortunately F1 lacks a bit of variety in circuits today. There's too many 'Tilkedromes' built to the same recipe of slow to midspeed corners leading onto long straights followed by hairpins.

Although I'm still not sure about Baku.. At least by F1's recent standards it's different.

Circuit variety is something that Indycar does better than F1. They have a mixture of road course, street track and oval. I'm not suggesting that F1 should adopt ovals but it certainly lost something when it left the Indianapolis road course. Whilst that was never the most epic of tracks it still had that certain something to make it stand out.

F1 needs to stop with the Tilkedromes machine, hang onto its classics such as Monaco, Spa, Monza, Silverstone, Montreal and Interlagos, embrace the recent successes such as Singapore and then think outside of the box for new venues, like Baku... But a little better.

Yeah, ironically and worryingly I think the only 'new' circuit not designed by Tilke (including the 1997-current A1 Ring!) is Singapore, which I think I'm correct in saying was done by the guys who did Melbourne. I'm not saying Singapore is great, but it's certainly different and most certainly a big challenge for the drivers and for that alone it's one of my favourites on the current calendar.

That's not to say Tilke's crap - he is an ex-racing driver himself and has given us a couple of good tracks (Istanbul and much of CotA and Baku for example), but it would be great if there was another designer or two to change things up a bit.

For example I can't help but feel that Istanbul's excellent turn 8 was never intended to the iconic and almost daunting corner it became during the track's short life - it was such an unexpected success that he tried to replicate it in India (and I think he was quoted in saying as much), but even with the designs himself he couldn't do it and we just ended up with an understeery mess because the camber had gone. It's like his rare successes are accidents rather than knowing what makes a great track. His off track designs are without match though - some of the facilities he designs are stunning, though of course often helped by the staggering boxes of cash thrown at them.

Seems that Imola has signed an agreement with Bernie, but this still needs approval from Angelo Sticchi Damiani, the president of the Automobile Club d'Italia, who so far has supported Monza.

As fun as Imola is to drive (though I've never enjoyed watching racing there) I'll not be happy if Monza goes.

Maybe Bernie is pulling a Bernie and the agreement with Imola is just a way to increase pressure on Monza organizers to find a solution to their issues. Actually the last thing i read was that Monza authorities solved their territorial problems and were about to send a binding offer to FOM.