Official 2014 British Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS with Gurney flaps***

Morbid Wrote:
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> Most ignored drivers in this thread:
>
> Daniil Kvyat
> Kevin Magnusson
>
> Both rookies with very little experience with F1
> wet weather driving, being thrust right into the
> thick of it, in a very, very unusual and
> unpredictable qualifying.

Most ignored of the season, in some respects? I think both - especially Daniil - have done a standout job given the lack of testing opportunities. Given the right car, I'd say both of them are race winners.

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gav Wrote:
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>

> Shame for Rosberg, but that almost evens it out
> for me (Montreal they both suffered the same
> issue, but Hamilton didn't manage the MGU-K
> controller failure enough and suffered - a car
> failure, but he could have nursed his car to the
> end too, but he didn't adjust as Rosberg had).
> More importantly it was just the luck Hamilton
> needed after his sulk following his monumental
> cockup yesterday.

I would like to see some documentation for that statement.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

It's a fact that they both suffered an identical failure. It's a fact that Hamilton was further back on his brake balance. It's a fact his rear brakes overheated.

Perhaps when his brakes began to cook themselves Mercedes were still trying to understanding the implications of the failure, but they both suffered the exact same failure and only one of the cars finished as a result. You don't need to view the internal investigation to see that.

didnt hamilton overcook his clutch or something at the start of Australia 2014 ? I mean, was it purely technical failure or was there some mishandling by the driver which triggered the problem?

Austraila there was a tiny hole in a cable that casued the problem not lewis fault.

Canada depends how you look at it. Lewis had his brakes more to the back as he was faster that way. The brakes were running hotter anyway as he was not in clean air.

What he should have done is stop racing nico and get the car home and that is what they meant by managing the situation better. The team were also at fault for not slowing him down more and they were still letting them race.

The team already said Nico would have had the same problem had Lewis not gone out the race, they changed Nico's brake balance straight after Lewis went out.

Everyone keeps banging on how much better Nico has been this yeah at getting the car home etc. Lewis lost 42 points to nico through car problems, on Sunday he got 25 back and the gap is 4 point. So who really has had the better year as Lewis is not 17 points behind.

Really enjoyed the race some great racing going on all round the track.

Quote
Mitadumapaga
didnt hamilton overcook his clutch or something at the start of Australia 2014 ? I mean, was it purely technical failure or was there some mishandling by the driver which triggered the problem?

No, it was an electrical cable shorting out on the cylinder head, stopping that piston from firing, meaning he only had 5 cylinders.

Quote
marcl
Canada depends how you look at it. Lewis had his brakes more to the back as he was faster that way. The brakes were running hotter anyway as he was not in clean air.

But he'd been in clear air for a few laps, which ought to have brought his temperatures down to close to Rosberg's level.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2014 11:24AM by gav.

The damage was already done though and they near enough failed after being cooked at the pit stop.

gav Wrote:
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> It's a fact that they both suffered an identical
> failure. It's a fact that Hamilton was further
> back on his brake balance. It's a fact his rear
> brakes overheated.

That is all true.

> Perhaps when his brakes began to cook themselves
> Mercedes were still trying to understanding the
> implications of the failure, but they both
> suffered the exact same failure and only one of
> the cars finished as a result. You don't need to
> view the internal investigation to see that.

This presumes that settings and conditions on both cars were identical, the well known phrase "all things being equal"... which you have not shown, and there is no reason to assume. It could be down to setup differences (as marcl points to and radio chatter during the race confirms. Once brakes have been cooked, wear levels suffer permanently regardless of later temperatures), different make or model of equipment, different wear levels or other things. We know from last season when Hamilton struggled with the brakes, that he prefers Carbone Industrie discs and Mercedes have in general used Brembros, thus it is very likely that equipment was not equal on the two cars. Even such a simple thing as rubber build up in the break ducts would disqualify your chain of reasoning, much less different brands of brakes and setups, hence your conclusion is based on flawed assumption, and is therefore subject to quite a deal of uncertainty. This is in fact reinforced by the fact, that Mercedes has not proposed your conclusion, and they have been quite open regarding insights, technical and proficiency differences between the drivers and the cars. So in summation, this is your conclusion, based on unverified assumptions, illuminated by your private bias. And this will remain unchanged until you provide better documentation for your claims.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2014 02:46PM by Morbid.

Quote
Morbid
So in summation, this is your conclusion, based on unverified assumptions, illuminated by your private bias.

Most of what we post is based upon conjecture to at least some degree, and while Mercedes haven't come out and blamed Hamilton (they're hardly going to do so, are they?), I'll stick to my guns that there was a situation to be managed and for whatever reason, it wasn't managed enough or early enough.

More to the point, you have to wonder why Merc didn't spot this in their telemetry - brake temperature is something routinely and constantly monitored, so either it only became apparent after Hamilton's rear brakes started overheating, or Hamilton was told and didn't do enough about it. Apologies if there isn't much in the way of a fact there and I've just posted more unverified assumptions.

I'll take issue with the bias though. I'm not going to pretend I'm a Hamilton fan - I've made it fairly clear I'm not, but I'm not a fan of Rosberg either. I really couldn't care less who wins this championship, so long as it's exciting or interesting, and it certainly hasn't failed to deliver so far.

gav Wrote:
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> Most of what we post is based upon conjecture to
> at least some degree,

Usually the lauded opinions are based on facts available, and then are subject to extrapolation. Conjecture is an entirely different matter.


> and while Mercedes haven't
> come out and blamed Hamilton (they're hardly going
> to do so, are they?)

Why not? It happens after each race that several drivers and/or teams go out and points to a driving misjudgement. Or do you find it even more reasonable, that they would point to some nameless engineer that fell asleep at the monitor? In any case, it is interesting how you made a complete role reversal on this, so the position is so, that the team not having pointed their finger at Hamilton, makes it likely that he was to blame!! That is some messed up reasoning.

> I'll stick to my guns that
> there was a situation to be managed and for
> whatever reason, it wasn't managed enough or early
> enough.

That's perfectly fine by me. I am not trying to convince you. But if you had prefixed this position with the words "it is my opinion", then we would be having a very, very different conversation.

> More to the point, you have to wonder why Merc
> didn't spot this in their telemetry - brake
> temperature is something routinely and constantly
> monitored, so either it only became apparent after
> Hamilton's rear brakes started overheating, or
> Hamilton was told and didn't do enough about it.

Or the Carbone breaks are more snappy at providing grip (which we know for a fact that they are), which also means that they generate faster and higher temperature spikes than the Brembos would do. This would be seen as a normal situation, and if nothing was suspected to wrong with the Brembos on Rosbergs car, then why would a recognizable pattern within the same parameters on Hamilton's car be seen as a problem? Further to the point, the master brake cylinder had to be redesigned several times in ´13 (and I am not even sure if this process has been completed), to accommodate for Hamilton's preferences. Which means it is almost entirely sure, that the load and temperature telemetry on both cars will be significantly dissimilar. And there is no reason to believe, that a critical condition on one set of equipment will be equally salvageable on the other. I would even go so far as to say, that in case of a too small cooling duct, and a small oversight by the engineering staff could very well produce a situation where one car had to retire and the other did not, regardless of other aspects being (close to) equal, due to the discrepancies in the features, limits and parameters of each set of equipment. In short, it's like comparing old Michelins to old Bridgestones and claiming it is the same situation for both cars.

> Apologies if there isn't much in the way of a fact
> there and I've just posted more unverified
> assumptions.

Apology accepted.

> I'll take issue with the bias though. I'm not
> going to pretend I'm a Hamilton fan - I've made it
> fairly clear I'm not, but I'm not a fan of Rosberg
> either. I really couldn't care less who wins this
> championship, so long as it's exciting or
> interesting, and it certainly hasn't failed to
> deliver so far.


Neutral compared to strong dislike is still a bias.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2014 04:51PM by Morbid.

great Alonso vs Vettel battle!.

and great for the podium too... it feels refreshing for racing to see Williams up there again.

BAD, very BAD Kimi... something needs to be done with those huge runoff areas.. it's truth that accidents happen for a series of events unfolding in the wrong direction, but if drivers didn't have those "escape zones" they wouldn't use them at full speed and re enter the track as if nothing happened...

the way Kimi rejoined the track was wreckless imho, if another driver was close or was having a battle with someone and busy watching the mirror he could've tangled and well in a way he was "lucky" he crashed on his own and lucky he did before the bridge... bring back the sandtraps, we won't be having these "track limits" debates, racing would be a lot more fair and drivers will be automaticly penalised for exceeding their own limits.

and Bernie, a little message for you, Silverstone as well as Montreal always deliver.. i sicerley hope he's not serious when he says he'll drop Monza.

Slash Wrote:
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> BAD, very BAD Kimi... something needs to be done
> with those huge runoff areas.. it's truth that
> accidents happen for a series of events unfolding
> in the wrong direction, but if drivers didn't have
> those "escape zones" they wouldn't use them at
> full speed and re enter the track as if nothing
> happened...
>
> the way Kimi rejoined the track was wreckless
> imho, if another driver was close or was having a
> battle with someone and busy watching the mirror
> he could've tangled and well in a way he was
> "lucky" he crashed on his own and lucky he did
> before the bridge...
> bring back the sandtraps, we
> won't be having these "track limits" debates,
> racing would be a lot more fair and drivers will
> be automaticly penalised for exceeding their own
> limits.

Indeed! Tarmac run off areas are not safer, they just create other types of hazards.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Yep. Want drivers to be penalised for exceeding track limits and/or going off? Bring GRAVEL TRAPS back. You know, those things that f*ck sh*t up when you drive into them.

A perfectly self-governing system has been lost, and tracks are now so sanitized it's getting ridiculous.

Edit: With Kimi's accident highlighting a further downside of them, like you say.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2014 01:53AM by EC83.

I am rather shocked kimi has not got a penalty for the next race tbh. He ruined the race of 3 other cars and caused an hour delay, people have got away with a lot less.