Fernando Alonso - has he lost his edge?

Last night I was watching Sky's repeat of the 2007 Malaysian GP, and it got me thinking.
Alonso drove so well in that race. He was untouchable. His drive was sheer immaculate brilliance - not spectacular, just effortless-looking crushing domination of the opposition. The same kind of other-worldly but routine-looking drive that characterised Senna and Schumacher countless times and most recently Vettel.

This weekend, even at his best, he seemed to struggle by comparison - he seemed not to be in the same "zone".

He seems not to be quite the same driver these days, even when the car is as underneath him is that Macca was 7 years ago. Apart from the first two-thirds of 2012, and the other odd inspired race, he seems somehow to be a shadow of the driver he was up to and during Spygate.

What might be the reasons for this? Has the combination of that tough year at Macca, followed by the years at Renault and the uncompetitive cars he drove, permanently damaged his self-confidence and self-belief?

How much of it is down to the rise of RedBull/Vettel, and could that in itself have sapped his confidence deep down?

Is he actually still as good, and it's just masked by the circumstances?

It's ironic - in the mid-2000s when he seemed to be the latest phenomenon winning everything, I couldn't stand the guy and liked seeing him get beaten. Now I miss that side of him and badly want him to start winning like that again.

I'm interested in knowing what everyone thinks. Let's discuss!

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I think when compared to his Ferrari team mates (who are no doubt not slouches when it comes to racing F1 cars, even Felipe - he can drive a car) he has comfortably belted them. Yes Kimi's only been there two races, but Nando has had his measure so far. Kimi's gone from race winner last year to also ran so far in 2014, so I think it shows that the Ferrari isn't up to it yet.

I wouldn't doubt that Nando has lost a tenth or two since his championship days purely due to getting older, but if I ran a team I'd have him drive my car everyday of the week as I don't think his hunger has dissipated at all.

He's more consistent now than he ever was. I've said time and time again I don't think he's one of the most naturally talented drivers, but he's relentless and consistent. He's what Mansell was in his best form.

While the relentlessness he showed from 2008 onwards (Singapore 2008, despite everything around it, was still some of the best driving I've ever seen across a weekend) isn't as obvious now due to the tyre-saving nature of F1, I think it's still very much there. His consistency can't be doubted.

I think his wheel-to-wheel race-craft has looked a touch rusty in the first two races, but it pales into insignificance compared to what we've seem from some of the seasoned heads.

For me, Hamilton yesterday is what Alonso can do with the best car - the difference is you know Hamilton is going to get into a huff about something at some point this season and let it dictate his form. Alonso might get into a huff, but he uses that on the track too.

He's still the best all-round driver in F1, and while I have no doubt Vettel is a great, I'd still have Alonso ahead of him until I see Vettel go up against another of those titans.

I mostly agree with gav, however, I do saw a very slight slump in this driving beginning from the very end of 2012, then a bit steeper one around the end of 2013 - just a few more mistakes than before.

The point is I think it is exactly the opposite: I think he was genuinely beaten in head by Lewis in 2007 (he also made a lot of errors comparatively that year), but it actually served him right - like gav said, he immerses everything, sees and takes the positives and uses them to improve his driving - as he became better and better up to the end of 2012 with a big jump up around Hockenheim 2010, when he got the full backing of everybody at Ferrari, including Massa.

I really feel like his excellence was masked by the uncompetitive cars. Like in 2011, I followed F1 really really close and just saw him extracting 110% time and again from a car that was not in the corner compared to the Red Bull and perhaps the McLaren.

In 2012 he just step up a level and to actually winning in that car was even catching the eye of the casual viewers - what did not, is how uncompetitive that cars really was. He always needed that 110% to keep that chmapionship alive, otherwise the Red Bulls and the McLarens would have just digested him.

Sadly, I don't think he has a chance this year either and the increasing number of errors could well be due to his age now. He could still do a Prost 1993 and get a dominant car in 2-3 years time and walk away with a WDC at the age of 34-35, but in terms of driving it will not be the same performance as 2010-12 was.

As for his battle with Kimi this year, I suggest looking at race pace at the Malaysian GP and overall at the weekend and we will see that the Kimster actually practically matched Alonso, he was just unlucky. He bounced back from his Melbourne setup issues well and we may still see great battles between them in the coming races.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2014 01:37PM by Atticus..

Alonso is a premium quality driver like those you find rarely and takes years to mould. I'm not a fan nor will I ever be, I'll admit the spygate made me kinda hate him as a person (though as a driver, he is awesome). But I don't think he's slower. He's just getting bad machinery, and, credit where it's due, he's doing wonders with it. Take 2012, the best example so far of what he can do with a crap car. Remember Melbourne? He was driving the F2012 like it was a Lancia 037, and the very next race, with little improvements, he won. You'll say "Man, can't you see the rain saved his toochie?" and I'll answer: if you can't handle a car in the dry, what hopes do you have in heavy rain?
He's not beaten, he still can get away with a third one. The thing is that if by any chance Kimi beats him this year, I bet he's gonna jump ship, because Ferrari isn't releasing Kimi again. And we all know that he doesn't like too skilled mates.



Stats: 139 Starts / 7 Wins / 9 Poles / 5 Fastest laps

I still think the subsequent months after 2007 (and the start of 2009) showed just how much McLaren bent over backwards for Hamilton. OK, Alonso was signed as the lead driver, but as Hamilton emerged as a genuine talent from the off, he was the Dennis's darling. I don't think Ron expected Lewis to step up to the mark quite as quickly as he did, but from that moment Alonso's time at McLaren was finished.

Fernando certainly didn't cover himself in glory in 2007, but there must have been so much going on behind the scenes we never saw. In 2008 and 2009 we started to see just what a cock Hamilton and those around him could be, but the PR department must have been earning some overtime. Thankfully Lewis seems to have grown up a bit now, but he's still very prone to off-track distractions and moody periods inevitably follow.

I've begun to think that Fernando has got "Jacques Villeneuve Syndrome" a bit.
A truly top driver who's been used to winning and being on the crest of a wave, joins a much less competitive team, initially shines brightly regardless and starts dragging that team up towards the front of the grid with him(2008), then seems to lose direction somehow when the following season proves to be a struggle as well. A bit like Jacques, I think that repeated seasons of being in a shitbox car have somehow hurt his confidence on a profound level - initially he still had that superhuman drive and confidence, which took him as far as his mindblowing drives in Singapore and then Fuji(My personal favourite) in 2008, with strong drives in Shanghai and Interlagos too. But when the 2009 car ended being even worse out of the box than the 2008 one had been... It's hard to pinpoint any particular change, but I can't help feeling that 2009 season did him a degree of psychological damage as a driver. His driving hasn't had quite the same energy and sparkle since - not consistently, anyway - that it did before that season IMO.

RE Getting older - I'm not sure. He's only 32. That's still pretty young! Surely the greater number of mistakes he's been making can't be down to age. Senna was 33 in 1993, and Mansell was 38 in '92 - both in their prime. (Obviously these guys started in F1 at later ages than Fernando, but still...) Interesting point to bring up though.


gav Wrote:
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> He's more consistent now than he ever was. I've
> said time and time again I don't think he's one of
> the most naturally talented drivers, but he's
> relentless and consistent. He's what Mansell was
> in his best form.

And I hear you, absolutely. I generally used to assume he was more talented because of his completeness as a driver and the sheer level of success he was having so relatively early on in his career. I guess the main difference is Mansell being more aggressive and more intuitive at overtaking.

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EC83 Wrote:
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> when he seemed to
> be the latest phenomenon winning everything, I
> couldn't stand the guy and liked seeing him get
> beaten. Now I miss that side of him and badly want
> him to start winning like that again.

If we all had a penny for each time this happened... we could share around and all be rich.

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It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Personally I think Villeneuve and Alonso are poles apart. The moment Villeneuve didn't have the best car, he was nowhere. I still wanted to believe he was quick, as I quite like an unorthodox driver, but he went from good to OK overnight... then continued getting gradually worse. That was probably more down to a mental thing than him just losing his ability, but still, in 1998 and despite the car, he did not have a good season. In the end he was getting soundly beaten by Button, and we know Button isn't often the guy setting the world alight.

Alonso though has plugged away doggedly since he lost his McLaren seat. He pulled out some sensational results at Renault, joined Ferrari and has finished 2nd, 4th (by a point) 2nd and 2nd, and I don't think anyone would argue he had the best car for the majority of any of those seasons. A few mistakes might be creeping in, but really it's only the Mercedes boys who haven't made any mistakes (that I can recall) this season (again showing just how much they've got in reserve).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2014 08:27AM by gav.

EC83 Wrote:
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> RE Getting older - I'm not sure. He's only 32.
> That's still pretty young! Surely the greater
> number of mistakes he's been making can't be down
> to age. Senna was 33 in 1993, and Mansell was 38
> in '92 - both in their prime. (Obviously these
> guys started in F1 at later ages than Fernando,
> but still...) Interesting point to bring up
> though.

Yeah, that's true. And while I think Mansell was a liittle bit past his prime by 1992, those who look beyond the results see that despite not getting that many poles, wins, WDC and finishing down in 3rd-4th places in the championship, retiring in the first two races of 1994, Senna just sky-rocketed up to the sky all these years in terms of what he could extract from a car, any car. At 34. So yes, age might not be that big of a factor.

i do not want to argue with you. indeed senna had some awesome drives in 1993. yet hakkinen outqualified him in his first appearance. so...

in 1992 he had a dismal season as well.
in general, towards the end of his career senna was quite crash happy.


regarding alonso - he has been driving amazingly. he trashed raikkonen in both qualies and in both races. if instead of kimi we had massa in the other car, everyone would be talking how bad he is.

Morbid Wrote:
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> If we all had a penny for each time this
> happened... we could share around and all be rich.

And if we all had a cent for each time you trolled, we'd be millionaires.


I think Senna made more mistakes in 1992-93 purely because(like Schumacher in '98) he was overdriving in an attempt to compensate for the car's lack of competitiveness. Adelaide '92 is probably the best example.


gav Wrote:
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> Personally I think Villeneuve and Alonso are poles
> apart. The moment Villeneuve didn't have the best
> car, he was nowhere. I still wanted to believe he
> was quick, as I quite like an unorthodox driver,
> but he went from good to OK overnight... then
> continued getting gradually worse.

He was disappointing in '98, but he had some stellar performances in 1999(in quali at least) and 2000, 2000 in particular - he seemed to be on a mission those first two BAR seasons. It was only in 2001 onwards that he seemed to decline. I agree that it must've been a mental thing - motivational.

Definitely, Fernando's motivation is in a different league to Jacques'. You'd be right there.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2015 11:28PM by EC83.

Having a clearly inferior car to red bull during these time span (2010-2013), with 5 more points (added to 252) in 2010 and 4 more in (added to 278) 2012 he would 4 times WDC. I can't see how that can be conceived as a "shadow of what he was".

I don't think Alonso has lost his edge at all, he already belongs in a book of Grand Prix Greats in my mind, but what is clear is that he's up against a golden era of talent and competition.

He's up against the dream team of Vettel, Newey and Renault which could possibly be the best combination since Clark, Chapman and Cosworth.

In addition to the Red Bull stream roller, there have been McLaren, Mercedes and Lotus all producing very formidable form (if not all at the same time).

There are at least two other drivers in Vettel and Hamilton who'd only need the smallest (or less) of car advantages to take a championship.

Kimi, Button, Rosberg all have capacity to take a championship if things fall their way.

Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Ricciardo are showing every indication of being the next generation at the top of F1.

And in Magussen, Bottas and maybe even Kyvat we have three young guns who could yet go all the way to the top.

There's nothing wrong with Alonso's edge, he's as sharp as ever, but he's been joined at the metaphorical blade stone by several others.

very good poiint JIM.

i find it interesting that Alain Prost was driving in an era as competitive as today, yet he pulled out 4 titles in it. and he was a team mate with senna too.

i believe that the mansells; the sennas; the laudas; the piquets; the pironis and villeneuves; the schumachers etc. were just as competitive as the guys you enlisted.

Piquet isn't in the same league as the other triple Champs. He usually only won anything because someone else had slipped up, rather than winning on merit. Admittedly he had an uncanny knack of being ready to pick up those pieces, which suggests he was just one echelon down from the top, but he was never in the same class as Lauda/Senna/Prost. Mansell was better than him too.


Ali Wrote:
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> Having a clearly inferior car to red bull during
> these time span (2010-2013), with 5 more points
> (added to 252) in 2010 and 4 more in (added to
> 278) 2012 he would 4 times WDC. I can't see how
> that can be conceived as a "shadow of what he
> was".

It was relative. My point is that his driving had seemed to lose its sparkle.


J i m Wrote:
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> I don't think Alonso has lost his edge at all, he
> already belongs in a book of Grand Prix Greats
> in my mind, but what is clear is that he's up
> against a golden era of talent and competition.
>
> He's up against the dream team of Vettel, Newey
> and Renault which could possibly be the best
> combination since Clark, Chapman and Cosworth.

Good points, well made. Particularly Vettel/RedBull-Clark/Lotus comparison, I've begun to think that too.


J i m Wrote:
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> Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Ricciardo are showing
> every indication of being the next generation at
> the top of F1.

Hulkenberg and Ricciardo, yes. Grosjean will be never be a top driver though - he's too one-dimensional. He's shown no racecraft or ability to drive round a car problem. Bit like a modern day de Cesaris, really.


J i m Wrote:
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> There's nothing wrong with Alonso's edge, he's
> as sharp as ever, but he's been joined at the
> metaphorical blade stone by several others.

I hear what you're saying, and that's a nice way of putting it.

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Quote
EC83
Piquet isn't in the same league as the other triple Champs. He usually only won anything because someone else had slipped up, rather than winning on merit. Admittedly he had an uncanny knack of being ready to pick up those pieces, which suggests he was just one echelon down from the top, but he was never in the same class as Lauda/Senna/Prost. Mansell was better than him too

I couldn't have put it better. I've always thought Piquet, while not exactly average, was the luckiest champion there has been, and certainly the luckiest multiple champion. People say there is no such thing as a poor champion, but in all honesty, I think Piquet was as close as we've come. He was beaten by Mansell (himself never naturally brilliant nor a great) comfortably for 2 seasons running, but lucked into one title and still managed to lose the other to a driver in an inferior car. Partner him with a proven top-class driver and he was humiliated.

He's still the holder of my favourite overtaking move though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2014 10:15PM by gav.

He just lost his faith to this team. he just need some team spirit, like the guy talladega nights. im not saying they're totally related but the motivation and that hunger. I guess he just need some space to reconcile with his inner self.

I don't know if he lost his faith in the team, or whether he's trying to put pressure on them to improve.

Somewhat ironically, looking back he might well have had another title had he stayed at Renault. The Lotus Kimi had might well have been capable of challenging for a title with Alonso in that car - Kimi was consistent, but seldom looked to have the doggedness Alonso has to go with that consistency.

Yep, Couldn't agree more.