Where does Vettel stand amongst the all time best as of now?

Schumacher 91
Alain Prost 51
Ayrton Senna 41
Sebastian Vettel 36
Nigel Mansell 31

Pretty impressive record when you consider the names he's amongst & the fact his career isn't over yet.

Despite wins the usual ranking is Senna, Schumacher, Fangio.

As of now how do you rank him opposed to other greats?





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2013 09:06PM by chrislewis.

I don't think you can define greatness by career total wins, there are so many other factors. If you took ratio of wins to starts for instance then the likes of Fangio and Clark would immediately leap into that list.

Can you put Vettel into the same bracket as Fangio, Clark and Senna? Absolutely yes. He's won 4 championships on the trot against one of the strongest fields F1 has seen in it's history.

Anybody who argues against that is either blind, ignorant or pig headed. If someone wanted to claim that he only achieved this because he had the best car the I'd point out that Fangio always made sure he had the best, Clark drove for Lotus at a time when they were the cutting edge and Senna did the bulk of his winning when the McLaren Honda partnership was virtually unassailable.

And yet they are still considered as the greatest of all time, Vettel unquestionably belongs with them.

Vettel has that thing that makes him race in a league of his own, as did Senna, Schumacher Fangio and Clark. All of them had been the man to beat in his own era. All of them raced against great drivers like Ascari, Stewart, Graham Hill, Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen etc., but being at another level

Somewhere pretty high up I think, for three main reasons: He's shown he can win the title in more or less any circumstances, he's up against top rivals and has shown he can dominate them all, and he has no - and I mean no - obvious weaknesses as a driver. Plus he's achieved more, sooner after the start of his career, than any driver in the history of the sport has.

Which makes four.

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Those who question Vettel need a slap.

If you apply the common critique that he has had the best of everything to do so, apply the same logic to Schumacher's legacy.

How many of Schumacher's titles were fought with as many title rivals as the past four years? How many different drivers won races in those years versus today?

If anything, Vettel's success trumps Schumacher's in my view.

And I don't really like the guy.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

I still rank him behind Schumacher, based purely on the fact that we haven't seen all that Seb has to offer..

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GPGSL -
GPGSL-3 - Pizza Party Racing manager and driver
Nations Cup - Team Scotland manager

Different time different cars. So many things to consider. One an era of all out racing 'do or die'. Another where the driver is restricted and more emphasis placed on looking after the machinery.
Taken as a whole Vettel is no doubt a force to be reckoned with and deserves all the accolades of a multiple Champion .... I also agree, that the speed ( pardon the pun ) that he has achieved all this in, is simply mind blowing.
I loved Shumacher's Arrogance and Senna's single mindedness but I feel Vettel will surpass them all in one way or another because he is special ...... and he is sooooooooooo young with plenty of time to over hall any record that stands presently.
I fully expect the 7 W.D.C's of Schumacher to be exceeded but going back to what Jim said it's not all about the Championships, I expect to see Vettel mature and Peek as one of the greatest phenomenons this sport has had to date.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

The sheer number of championships he could win is scary. He's a four time world champion at the age of 26. FOUR TIMES. He's younger than most of the posters here. If he goes on until he's in his mid-30s, he could double the number of championships Schumacher won... OK, that's VERY unlikely to happen, but while he's in that car with such a strong design team, it's hard to see anyone else nicking more than the odd title off him - 2010 and 2012 were years he had to battle to the title, and he still came out with the championship each time. 2009 he didn't win, but then he was up against Vettel/Mansell/Schumacher-like domination in the first half of the season... you get the feeling it's going to take another design feat like the Brawn next year to pry the title out of his hands.

I'm only echoing what everyone says and thinks constantly, but do hope he feels the need to stretch his legs and move to a lesser team at some point. Go head to head with what are considered rivals - Alonso, Hamilton, etc.

everything you shared here guys, I agree on!

do you know what? Right now I feel about vettel the same way I felt about alonso at the beginnin of 2007! From my point of view, the guy was definately up to beat schumacher's record of 7 titles..... but he didnt, and probably never will!

The one thing on which I do not fully agree is the claim that vettel will beat schumacher, let's put it this way: in formula 1 everything can happen and it usually does. Think of fittipaldi, think of alonso and hamilton. All of them were definately up to beat records set years, decades before, yet, no one succeeded. the era of the unbeatable mclaren in the 80s come to an end, the unbeatable rory byrne and ferrari got beaten, although later rather than sooner.
And finally, even the mighty williams and its designer, attention, Mr. A. Newey, got beaten. To put a greater emphasis on that: even the silver arrows designed by Mr Newey had to give way for a better technology, for a better driver and for a better team to start winning.


From my point of view, Vettel is not that close to equaling fangio's titles. He is even further away from beating Fangio and definately miles away from surpassing schuey's record of 7 titles, which was set so many moons ago.

smoglessbutton4 Wrote:
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> I still rank him behind Schumacher, based purely
> on the fact that we haven't seen all that Seb has
> to offer..

He's better than Schumacher, for one simple reason: Schumacher was flawed, Vettel isn't.


gav Wrote:
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> 2009 he didn't win, but
> then he was up against
> Vettel/Mansell/Schumacher-like domination in the
> first half of the season...

He was also in his first season in a top car and still obviously pretty inexperienced in general. I never expected him to win the title that season and thought it was unfair of the media to make such a big deal out of his mathematical chance of the title between Suzuka and Interlagos - he'd done such an impressive job that year anyway.

Another one of his exceptional strengths is his ability to learn from his mistakes. Now we know that when he was making apparently silly mistakes in races as recently as 2010, and getting slagged off big time for them(very harshly I thought), he was actually putting the lessons from them to pretty epic use.

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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2013 07:17AM by EC83.

Quote
mitadumapaga
The one thing on which I do not fully agree is the claim that vettel will beat schumacher, let's put it this way: in formula 1 everything can happen and it usually does. Think of fittipaldi, think of alonso and hamilton. All of them were definately up to beat records set years, decades before, yet, no one succeeded.

The difference to Hamilton, Alonso, etc, is that Vettel is unbeaten for the last 4 seasons. If you were saying this after 1 or even 2 closely contested seasons, then I'd be inclined to agree, but he is already in an exclusive club.

While he's undoubtedly great, I'm not convinced he's the current best - I still think Alonso is the best all-rounder on the grid, and I think we'd have seen a similar level of domination had he been in the Red Bull this year, and I'd argue Vettel wouldn't have got out of the Ferrari what Alonso has in the last four years. That's why I was desperate to see Hamilton to join Red Bull at the end of last season, and for Alonso or Hamilton to partner him in the future. It'd be explosive.

All that said, I did genuinely think Hamilton was out to dominate for years to come when he landed in 2007. I think the celebrity culture has got to him, and he's lost that raw edge, even as early as 2009 he wasn't the same driver.

I don't remember many conversations on here when Alonso was taking it to Schumacher, but that's probably because Schumacher was still around and Alonso was still seen as the underdog... Alonso has since firmly established himself as the consistent nutter he is, irrespective of how poor his car is, and I think we've not seen a driver like that in the last 20 years, and probably not even then (Mansell had Alonso's determination to make up for his lack of natural talent, but he was flawed in many ways).

mitadumapaga Wrote:
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> The one thing on which I do not fully agree is the
> claim that vettel will beat schumacher, let's put
> it this way: in formula 1 everything can happen
> and it usually does. Think of fittipaldi, think of
> alonso and hamilton. All of them were definately
> up to beat records set years, decades before, yet,
> no one succeeded. the era of the unbeatable
> mclaren in the 80s come to an end, the unbeatable
> rory byrne and ferrari got beaten, although later
> rather than sooner.
> And finally, even the mighty williams and its
> designer, attention, Mr. A. Newey, got beaten. To
> put a greater emphasis on that: even the silver
> arrows designed by Mr Newey had to give way for a
> better technology, for a better driver and for a
> better team to start winning.
>
>
> From my point of view, Vettel is not that close
> to equaling fangio's titles. He is even further
> away from beating Fangio and definately miles away
> from surpassing schuey's record of 7 titles, which
> was set so many moons ago.


That's the most conflicting and confused answer I have ever read.

You say how unbreakable records were set, and list ways they have been surpassed and beaten with time. But somehow you also say how records won't be broken again. Are you a fool? 7 World Title record was broken as recently as 2004 by Schumacher in a consecutive manner one after the other. The same way Vettel has for the last 4 seasons. So... why won't it happen again?

Vettel is not that close to equalling Fangio's titles? Erm... he is over halfway there, and with one more title he will match the 'invincible' Schumacher string of 2000-2004.

You are an avid Schumacher fanboy and are seriously disillusioned. If anything, Vettel right now could potentially hit 7 titles in a row.

Not just matching Fangio and Schumacher, but setting a new title for most consecutive titles.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2013 12:33PM by danm.

Vettel could conceivably become the Sebastian Loeb of F1, what did he do in WRC 9 titles in a row?

It is unlikely but it is possible.

But there are a few reasons why I think it won't happen though and it's nothing to about any perceived rank of greatness of Vettel.

The Red Bull package which has won the previous 4 doubles on the trot is unlikely to remain the same package for much longer. McLaren have head hunted at least one of their key designers and possibly a second. Newey himself is once again considering a career change. This makes it unlikely that Red Bull will indefinitely continue to field the best overall car and that's without reckoning on the potential effects of the new engine formula for next year.

In the short term I can think we can rely on Red Bull having a chassis at least as good as anything else and hence a 5th consecutive title for Vettel is still a likely prospect. But the inevitable game of musical chairs of personnel between teams is likely to topple Red Bull from their current pedestal eventually.

All dominant teams eventually fall whether they be McLaren Honda, Williams Renault or Schumacher era Ferrari. The saving grace for Vettel is that he's young enough to carve out a new era at a different team when that time comes. And happily there is the prospect of him having real competition from worthy rivals if F1 manages to put the right drivers up there.

Both aged 26 years old. Vettel has 4 titles. Schumacher had his first.

Vettel could easily 'do a Schumacher' and, as you say, start again with a new team.

What is scarier, if he still races up to the age of 42, that means he has another 16 years of F1.

16 years, and he needs 3 titles to match the all time great record.

Mind blowing.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

While I agree with Jim that Vettel won't continue his domination for the length of eternity, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think it will come to at least a temporary halt as quickly as next season.

Red Bull's success throughout Vettel's winning streak is to a large extent down to the exhaust blown diffusers. When Red Bull switched their exhaust design at the beginning of 2012 they were off the pace (and interestingly, Webber, with his inability to adapt to the EBD, appeared to be very much on par with Vettel - indeed ahead of him). They changed back to the 2011-style exhaust after 1/3 of the season or so, and Vettel charged back and, as we know, won the title in the final race in Brazil.

Next year, if Newey manages to fuel the diffuser from the exhaust, he's gone from genius designer to defying the laws of physics.

I've already posted about Vettel's exquisite throttle control, and stated out loud that the extra torque could hamper him.

So, without the blown diffuser, can we expect other teams to get on par with Red Bull? I expect so. Will Vettel's relentless steamrollering of the championship continue? Maybe. But he'll have to work a lot harder for it.

There is that, but also as pointed out by Ross Brawn recently is that Red Bull have made a decent step forward in reducing their aerodynamic drag without sacrificing the overall downforce and as a result have they been much more competitive in the speed traps than they have been historically and this too should carry through into next season.

The biggest game changer is going to be the engine... The general concenus in the media is that Mercedes are ahead but how can anyone really know that? All I can say is never ever underestimate Renault as historically especially in the modern eras have been one of the strongest engine manufactures ever in F1.

Didn't Renault overtake Ferrari's record of pole positions in India?

Something mad like that.

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

While he's undoubtedly great, I'm not convinced he's the current best - I still think Alonso is the best all-rounder on the grid

Up till earlier this year I would've agreed with this - but now he's been in F1 only half as long as Alonso has, and he has twice as many titles, and two of them were won after tough season-long battles with Alonso himself. I really think Vettel has shown himself to be a better driver than Alonso now - only slightly, but I can't help feeling he is. If only because he has a better temperament than Alonso, and is therefore in a better position to make maximum use of his talent as a driver.


danm Wrote:
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> Both aged 26 years old. Vettel has 4 titles.
> Schumacher had his first.

MS was still 26 when he won his second title. Your point stands though.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2013 05:20AM by EC83.

dan, i didnt mean to sound like schumacher fanboy! i will try to sound more objective from now on!

here is the point i tried to make about vettel:

everything based on his achievements is based on historical data from only few years, 4-5 years. In statistics, the shorter the historical data one uses to estimate the future, the bigger the magnitude of estimation error is.

In 2007 alonso`s achievements made people see him as the man who will tear down schueys` fangios` etc records.
YET: those achievements were based on data collected from the last 4-5 years only. In the long term things balance out, as they did for alonso (hamiltno, villeneuve, fittipaldi, lauda etc.)

I am not saying vettel is not great. To claim that is just not sane!
My point is that any estimation now, how he will smash records, will be premature, since it would be based on very little historical data. The volatility (uncertainty) in such prediction is further strentghened by the ban of the blown diffuers\ gases, as gav pointed out.

can you see the logic behind my argument now?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2013 06:05PM by mitadumapaga.

I think you make a fair point mate. Vettel's 'greatness', if that's what you want to call it, is restricted to a smaller period, meaning that it could be misconstrued.

But to deny that he is one of the greatest talents that the sport has ever seen, that would just be foolhardy.

I agree with your last point EC83. I, like you, had thought Alonso to be the best all-rounder on the grid up until this year.

I think the fact that Vettel is now just 4 wins shy of Senna's record puts just what he has done over the last few years into perspective.

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions