2012 Brazilian Grand Prix***Spoilers***

I think it would be somewhat wrong to win like this - much of the moral high ground that Alonso has now would be gone. Red Bull would certainly appeal any overturn.

Interestingly on a different note - because bored of filling in a database for my own website - I looked at what would have have happened under the previous scoring system etc 10, 8 and so on. I was convinced that Alonso would have won but it comes out Vettel 115, Alonso 114.

I did another chart - also in need of diversion with who seemed the best driver for their equipment in recent years, based on who as a result of that deserved the title;

Came up with this

1985 - Prost
1986 - Prost
1987 - Mansell
1988 - Senna
1989 - Senna
1990 - Senna
1991 - Senna
1992 - Mansell/Senna
1993 - Senna
1994 - Schumacher
1995 - Schumacher
1996 - Hill/Schumacher/Villeneuve
1997 - Schumacher
1998 - Hakkinen/Schumacher
1999 - Hakkinen
2000 - Schumacher/Hakkinen
2001 - Schumacher
2002 - Schumacher
2003 - Schumacher/Raikonnen
2004 - Schumacher
2005 - Alonso
2006 - Alonso/Schumacher
2007 - Raikonnen/Hamilton/Alonso
2008 - Hamilton/Massa
2009 - Button
2010 - Alonso/Vettel
2011 - Vettel
2012 - Alonso/Vettel

Where there is more than one driver - its my view in a year who was more deserving of winning.

There you go discuss.

I was rooting for Fernando this year, but there's no way I'd like the championship to go that way now if Ferrari appeal. It's over and done with now.

Anyway, it's been suggested that there was a marshal waving a green flag on the second post on that straight (which is positioned on the left hand side, close to the end of the pit exit); however it's very difficult to see due to the low light and backdrop. So Vettel's pass is perfectly above board in that case.

I couldn't give a rat's ass whether certain people think "Oh, Alonso could win this. I hope they appeal". Personally, at this late stage now, it would be, in my opinion, very wrong indeed to strip them of the title. If there was a clear flagrant disregard of the rules (for example, Vettel just overtaking under CLEAR yellows) then yes, but that would have been a thing to be looked at after the race.

As far as I'm concerned, that was a clean pass on Vergne.

If you're still after his head, I urge you to put yourself in his shoes for a second.

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

I almost wish that they had a steward for each driver - each one watching their driver's onboard camera throughout the race. If they spot anything suspicious, they could pass it on to the panel, who would then decide if it was illegal or not.

I'm sure they could afford it, and it would end all of these arguements and uncertainity!

EDIT: it would help in qualifying, too. There wouldn't be any of those arguements about "his lap should have been void", because we'd have stewards checking each driver as it was happening.

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You know you want to. [judgegrudge.mybrute.com]




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2012 06:43PM by flat tyre.

It got missed in the race and there is nothing they can do about it now.

Had the penalty been applied after the race Alonso would be champ as Vettel would have been out the points.

A pass under yellow is not allowed even if someone backs off, but Massa is also meant to have let Alonso through under yellows but there is no video of that.

It was not pass under yellow flags anyway, there is a marshall standing on the left waving green flag so the pass was legal. This was also confirmed by official marshall that it's like that and waved green flag always rule out flashing yellow flags.

Maldonado's crash:

F1 Fanatic | F1 fans' videos from the 2012 Brazilian Grand Prix

This was a rumour earlier, but it now seems to be heading towards official:

Quote
BBC
Ferrari want to establish whether there is enough evidence to lodge a protest that, if successful, could overturn the result of the world championship.
Ferrari are "evaluating footage" that appears to show Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel making an illegal overtaking move in Sunday's Brazilian Grand Prix.

BBC | Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest



I too wouldn't want the title settled like this. I think Alonso deserved the title (not that Vettel didn't), but it's wrong that it should stretch on until the middle of the following week, and potentially into the winter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2012 10:56PM by gav.

Hmmmmm. Bitter taste in mouth about this. Looking at the video it WAS an illegal overtake. If it comes to it I don't see how the FIA have any choice but to penalise Vettel.

Apparently it's Alonso pushing for the investigation.


It's not like it made a blind bit of difference though, that's the issue I have.

I'm not sure there'd be too much to the investigation - someone has already dug out a picture that clearly shows the green flag on the exit of turn 3:

[twitter.com]

Where the flags and dashboard lights contradict one another, the rules give precedence to the flags. This was confirmed at an appeal in 2007:

[www.fia.com]

/edit: Another, more useful image:

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2012 11:36PM by senninho.

Good. Then let's end this nonsense!

Called it

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

I really hope Ferrari don't do this, even as a life long Ferrari fan I don't want Alonso to get the title this way, it should have been spotted during the race and dealt with then if an infraction had occured.

I think it will technically be a clean pass on Vergne as the green flag in the marshalls box seems like enough evidence to prove that.

Part of me does wonder if Vettel actually saw that Green flag or if the red mist had descended and he just got lucky. Given everything going on at that point in the race and with yellow lights on the boards in his car it would have been easy to miss the green flag. Or maybe being able to take all that it is something that comes with being a world class driver.

Does anybody know what caused the yellow flag in that section and when that even occured, would add weight to the argument that the section of track should have been under green conditions.

Adman1138 Wrote:
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> Does anybody know what caused the yellow flag in
> that section and when that even occured, would add
> weight to the argument that the section of track
> should have been under green conditions.

A Williams (Maldonado?) had gone off at turn three - you can just about see it in the background of my first link. That being the case, the green flag at the end of the pit lane (well clear of turn three) seems normal.

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senninho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adman1138 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anybody know what caused the yellow flag
> in
> > that section and when that even occured, would
> add
> > weight to the argument that the section of
> track
> > should have been under green conditions.
>
> A Williams (Maldonado?) had gone off at turn three
> - you can just about see it in the background of
> my first link. That being the case, the green flag
> at the end of the pit lane (well clear of turn
> three) seems normal.

So the green flag is legit, and that should be the end of any potential protest



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 12:44AM by Adman1138.

The thing is that the rule states that:

- a car is in a yellow/green flag zone once the car goes exactly past the board or flag and not when it appears in front of the car!
- in fact the flag sign on the driver's steering appears precisely as soon as the car goes past the board or flag!

At the time of Vettel's overtake on Vergne, the Red Bull was not passed the green board and thus Vettel was still in a yellow flag zone!

Another thing that I have read but could be just an over-escalated point, is that on the final straight to the finish lap on the final lap, Vergne (who ended the race 8th) slowed drastically, creating a gap to Vettel of 20seconds! Remembering that a post race penalty could either be 20 or 25 secs and that Vettel needed 8th place to secure the title, it could be another point of interest!

But anyway, at this point I believe that Ferrari should accept the result and work harder on next year's car.

I've since heard that Ferrari weren't going to protest anyway; it's all just fanciful rumours in an effort to keep the fire burning.

However, according to F1 Fanatic, they wouldn't be able to do so anyway: [www.f1fanatic.co.uk]

So, to conclude...the whole thing is a load of bollocks really.

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

The third pass on that video on F1 Fanatic clearly shows that it was an illegal pass on the Toro Rosso and if the FIA choose to look into it as a result before tomorrow they can do so. An illegal pass is an illegal pass and a time penalty is appropriate under the rules. This has been argued here on a number of occasions before.

da silva Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thing is that the rule states that:
>
> - a car is in a yellow/green flag zone once the
> car goes exactly past the board or flag and not
> when it appears in front of the car!
> - in fact the flag sign on the driver's steering
> appears precisely as soon as the car goes past the
> board or flag!
>
> At the time of Vettel's overtake on Vergne, the
> Red Bull was not passed the green board and thus
> Vettel was still in a yellow flag zone!

Not true - have a look at the image and PDF I posted. Vettel passed a marshal's post that was displaying a green flag at the pit exit. The dash lights are for reference only, and - per the FIA's decision in the PDF - do not supersede flags.

davidm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The third pass on that video on F1 Fanatic clearly
> shows that it was an illegal pass on the Toro
> Rosso and if the FIA choose to look into it as a
> result before tomorrow they can do so. An illegal
> pass is an illegal pass and a time penalty is
> appropriate under the rules. This has been argued
> here on a number of occasions before.

The pass was not illegal, as a green flag had been displayed at the pit lane exit. This invalidated the yellow lights displayed on the following straights.

The rules are quite clear on this, and the appeal decision that I have linked to doubly so.

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The green flag that was shown does not mean the yellows are not valid, that green flag is to tell the drivers leaving the pit lane that they are free to re join. When Vettel makes the pass the yellows are out.

It was the same in the USA a few years back, MS passed a car under green but turn 1 was under yellow but as the move was complete it was ok.

Vettel did not pass under green he passed under yellow and its clear to see.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

All this talk about if vettel got the penalty in the race he would have not lost much time due to the saftey car should not be taken into account. Had Lewis taken his drive through at Spa in 2008 he would have lost more than 20 seconds as the pit lane is shorter. Had vettel taken a drive through in Brazil he would have lost 25 seconds as the pit lane is longer than 20 seconds.

I dont think anything will happen as all the books have been printed showing Vettel to be world champion and the videos will be heading to the shops soon. This was the reason they gave in 1997 for allowing MS to keep his wins despite being excluded from the championship.

marcl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The green flag that was shown does not mean the
> yellows are not valid, that green flag is to tell
> the drivers leaving the pit lane that they are
> free to re join. When Vettel makes the pass the
> yellows are out.

I'm not aware of any such rule - I've certainly not seen that at other circuits, other than the blue light to warn them of oncoming traffic. There is a marshal's post shown there on the track map, and it is not part of the pit lane. The pit lane ends at the top of the hill; the entry road is considered part of the track, so there is nothing 'special' about that post.

> It was the same in the USA a few years back, MS
> passed a car under green but turn 1 was under
> yellow but as the move was complete it was ok.

Can you give some more detail? The FIA's decision in the PDF says:

WHEREAS in Article 8.4 of the Formula One Technical Regulations, it is specified
that the only purpose of cockpit lights is “…to give drivers information concerning
track signals or conditions.”, which does not authorize them to substitute these signals
for flag signals;

If Schumacher passed under green lights, but there was no green flag, it would have been an illegal pass. If he passed a green flag, then the move was legal. The crux of the FIA's decision is that the cockpit lights cannot be taken as a substitute for flag signals. This works both ways; the FIA are bound to base their decision on the flags, not the lights that are there to simply give information.

> Vettel did not pass under green he passed under
> yellow and its clear to see.

Vettel passed a green flag, waved from a marshal's post at the side of the track. This acted to clear the yellow flags being waved to cover the incident at turn three, which he had passed, and therefore the lights are irrelevant. His pass took place after the green flag.

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