2012 United States Grand Prix ***SPOILERS***
Posted by Toki
Next year will answer a LOT in terms of that Mercedes car and its drivers.
Nico hasn't really had a proper benchmark, besides a maturing Webber before his peak at Williams whilst Nico was still a rookie.
MS isn't a good benchmark today due to questionable accomplishments always in an outstanding car. He is also partly retired, and beyond his prime.
Lewis and Nico are both mature enough now and I'd give Lewis a third of a season to lay blame to 'adaptation' to a new team before we can begin assessing Nicos, MS's and the Mercedes credibility.
Lewis will be the benchmark. I can't wait.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Nico hasn't really had a proper benchmark, besides a maturing Webber before his peak at Williams whilst Nico was still a rookie.
MS isn't a good benchmark today due to questionable accomplishments always in an outstanding car. He is also partly retired, and beyond his prime.
Lewis and Nico are both mature enough now and I'd give Lewis a third of a season to lay blame to 'adaptation' to a new team before we can begin assessing Nicos, MS's and the Mercedes credibility.
Lewis will be the benchmark. I can't wait.
I agree will be interesting to see ...... of course Mercedes should have learned something over these past three years so, dont expect that the car Lewis drives will be half as pathetic as what Ms and Nico have had to contend with thus far ................?
" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."
Member of R.S.C.T Group
" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."
Member of R.S.C.T Group
Mitadumapaga, please stop being so partisan about Schuey, it borders on the ridiculous sometimes.
In regards to Rosberg, he has generally been matched by a 40+ MS over the last 3 years. Himself a man who people have been hugely critical about since his return. How can that be good enough? Now he is going to find himself in a Webber style seat at Merc, except the car is a shitbox.
A major issue that I have with him is that he is just so forgettable as a driver. What has he done of note since his win? I can only think of him running Alonso off the road in Bahrain.
I'm guessing he will be obliterated by Lewis next year.
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
In regards to Rosberg, he has generally been matched by a 40+ MS over the last 3 years. Himself a man who people have been hugely critical about since his return. How can that be good enough? Now he is going to find himself in a Webber style seat at Merc, except the car is a shitbox.
A major issue that I have with him is that he is just so forgettable as a driver. What has he done of note since his win? I can only think of him running Alonso off the road in Bahrain.
I'm guessing he will be obliterated by Lewis next year.
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
Rosberg reminds me of Ralf - he has a lot of the same characteristics.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 06:00PM by EC83.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 06:00PM by EC83.
I don't know why there is a general bashing of Ralf.
He produced some mighty fine drives in his Jordan and Williams years, and then kinda got killed off with the whole Toyota false promise. Nobody did there at all.
Ralf was like Frentzen.
Both class drivers, but they were always a few others who were a step ahead that took any limelight from their own results. Remove Schumacher and Ferrari from the early 2000's and then single them out.
Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
He produced some mighty fine drives in his Jordan and Williams years, and then kinda got killed off with the whole Toyota false promise. Nobody did there at all.
Ralf was like Frentzen.
Both class drivers, but they were always a few others who were a step ahead that took any limelight from their own results. Remove Schumacher and Ferrari from the early 2000's and then single them out.
airefresco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for replying to this; you saved me quite a lot of typing by agreeing with me in advance
> You see the flaw in your argument is that he has
> spent a vast majority of his career running people
> of the road, deliberately, or doing other dirty
> things on track (Monaco ´06 for example). If he
> was the greatest ever then he wouldn´t need to
> cheat so much.
Even Senna was prone to doing stupid things on track, but Schumacher took this sort of behaviour and made it the norm. Even the man himself didn't try to defend Jerez '97 once confronted with the evidence.
> He has never really beaten a strong opponent in a
> weaker or equal car. The only strongest opponents
> he has ever had was Senna, (come back to this in a
> second), Hakkinen, Kimi, Alonso and Vettel and
> they all beat him, I am tempted to add Jaques
> here as well, but I am kind of inclined to think
> that it was more the car than Jaques that won in
> ´97. Kimi only lost out on the championship
> because the Mclaren kept breaking down.
Hakkinen pretty much had the measure of Michael in 99 and 00. I think Michael knew this, as there was much less in the way of mind games and such. It's also worth pointing out that Schumacher won all his titles with the support of a clear number 2 driver, with zero competition within the team. I don't think this can be said of any of the drivers who beat him to the championship, with the possible exception of Vettel.
I'd also go so far as to say that his titles in 1994 and 2003 were the only ones won with a car that wasn't the class of the field. In '95, Benetton were simply a better team than Williams, and we all know what Ferrari were churning out of their factory from 2000 onwards.
> The Senna thing, we will never know, yes Senna was
> getting beat, but in the first race Senna was
> catching him and was only a few seconds off him
> before crashing (admittedly his own fault). The
> second race, Senna was taken out, and then we all
> know what happened in the third race, which Senna
> was leading when the accident happened.
It's also worth pointing out that the B194 was probably running launch control in the early races of '94 - Senna and Larina complained about it at Aida, and Verstappen has since claimed that Briatore told him 'not to discuss it'. Benetton also tried to gain a pitstop advantage from removing baffles inside the refuelling hose - something which probably contributed to Verstappen's pit fire. The early-season FW16 was a pig of a car, which became probably the class of the field towards the end of the season. That Damon Hill could take the fight to Schumacher shows what the car could have done in Senna's hands.
> Whist I agree, Schumacher is one the greats
> statistically, for me at least he will never be
> one of the greats with Senna, Fangio, etc. The
> early days he looked as if he was going to be a
> great, but then he spoilt it. Purely because the
> only thing I will ever remember him for is being a
> dirty cheat.
I think it's fair to say that Michael is one of the fastest and most intelligent of all time, but probably also one of the most flawed. He wasn't able to deal with pressure like most of the other 'greats', and that will always result in arguments like these.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 09:44PM by senninho.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for replying to this; you saved me quite a lot of typing by agreeing with me in advance
> You see the flaw in your argument is that he has
> spent a vast majority of his career running people
> of the road, deliberately, or doing other dirty
> things on track (Monaco ´06 for example). If he
> was the greatest ever then he wouldn´t need to
> cheat so much.
Even Senna was prone to doing stupid things on track, but Schumacher took this sort of behaviour and made it the norm. Even the man himself didn't try to defend Jerez '97 once confronted with the evidence.
> He has never really beaten a strong opponent in a
> weaker or equal car. The only strongest opponents
> he has ever had was Senna, (come back to this in a
> second), Hakkinen, Kimi, Alonso and Vettel and
> they all beat him, I am tempted to add Jaques
> here as well, but I am kind of inclined to think
> that it was more the car than Jaques that won in
> ´97. Kimi only lost out on the championship
> because the Mclaren kept breaking down.
Hakkinen pretty much had the measure of Michael in 99 and 00. I think Michael knew this, as there was much less in the way of mind games and such. It's also worth pointing out that Schumacher won all his titles with the support of a clear number 2 driver, with zero competition within the team. I don't think this can be said of any of the drivers who beat him to the championship, with the possible exception of Vettel.
I'd also go so far as to say that his titles in 1994 and 2003 were the only ones won with a car that wasn't the class of the field. In '95, Benetton were simply a better team than Williams, and we all know what Ferrari were churning out of their factory from 2000 onwards.
> The Senna thing, we will never know, yes Senna was
> getting beat, but in the first race Senna was
> catching him and was only a few seconds off him
> before crashing (admittedly his own fault). The
> second race, Senna was taken out, and then we all
> know what happened in the third race, which Senna
> was leading when the accident happened.
It's also worth pointing out that the B194 was probably running launch control in the early races of '94 - Senna and Larina complained about it at Aida, and Verstappen has since claimed that Briatore told him 'not to discuss it'. Benetton also tried to gain a pitstop advantage from removing baffles inside the refuelling hose - something which probably contributed to Verstappen's pit fire. The early-season FW16 was a pig of a car, which became probably the class of the field towards the end of the season. That Damon Hill could take the fight to Schumacher shows what the car could have done in Senna's hands.
> Whist I agree, Schumacher is one the greats
> statistically, for me at least he will never be
> one of the greats with Senna, Fangio, etc. The
> early days he looked as if he was going to be a
> great, but then he spoilt it. Purely because the
> only thing I will ever remember him for is being a
> dirty cheat.
I think it's fair to say that Michael is one of the fastest and most intelligent of all time, but probably also one of the most flawed. He wasn't able to deal with pressure like most of the other 'greats', and that will always result in arguments like these.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 09:44PM by senninho.
I'd argue that in 1998, 1999 and 2006 that Hakkinen and Alonso were clearly top dogs within their respective teams.
Not on the level of Schuey certainly but it was pretty obvious that they were Rons and Flavios favourites. I particularly remember the reaction to Austria and Spa 1999.
I'd also add 1995 to the list of years when Schuey won the title in a car that wasn't the class of the field.
The B195 was considered a very difficult car to drive, very quick but with a very small margin for error. Berger shunted it in post 1995 testing in a big way and commented how difficult it was to drive, saying how he couldn't believe Schuey had won anything in it. Contrast that with the FW17, especially the B variant that was introduced later in the season which took 12 poles that season and it is clear that it was the better car that year, but Williams thew away the Constructors as Hill was just generally awful.
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 10:21PM by Ferrari2007.
Not on the level of Schuey certainly but it was pretty obvious that they were Rons and Flavios favourites. I particularly remember the reaction to Austria and Spa 1999.
I'd also add 1995 to the list of years when Schuey won the title in a car that wasn't the class of the field.
The B195 was considered a very difficult car to drive, very quick but with a very small margin for error. Berger shunted it in post 1995 testing in a big way and commented how difficult it was to drive, saying how he couldn't believe Schuey had won anything in it. Contrast that with the FW17, especially the B variant that was introduced later in the season which took 12 poles that season and it is clear that it was the better car that year, but Williams thew away the Constructors as Hill was just generally awful.
Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 10:21PM by Ferrari2007.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.