Button & Perez – the worst since de Cesaris?

I'd imagine this is going to be mildly contentious, but I'm going to say it:

I think McLaren's 2013 driver line-up is going to be their weakest for 30 years.

Over the years they've had weak cars (mid-90s particularly), but they've had a World Champion or future World Champion among their ranks since 1982 (John Watson and Andrea de Cesaris being the last pair of McLaren teammates who never won a drivers championship, in 1981).

Of course I haven't forgotten that Button has won a title before, but, and I'm being quite brutal here, I think the car won him the title and he had a relatively weak teammate, in much the way Vettel hasn't often been pushed by Webber (both of which pains me to say) – strong drivers, but never anything more than number two drivers. I also know Button pushed and beat Hamilton in 2011, but Hamilton had a particularly poor year and it would always be the exception to the rule, had they continued to be teammates.

Perez too may be a future champion, but I've said this before, I think the car is flattering him slightly, and my opinion is that he's going to be good, but I can't see him winning a title if he has a car equal to an Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel.

And that's it. Alonso is an all-time great. Hamilton has the ability to be (though you feel he needs to lose the wanton celebrity status). Vettel in all likelihood is soon to be a triple World Champion, so at the very least, statistically a great (we still need to see him up against another top driver though). Kimi is clearly a great driver, though he's not won as many titles as he should have. Hakkinen is a borderline great. Senna is arguably one of the true legends. Prost is a four-time champion. Lauda a triple champion.

As hard as I try, I just can't put Button or Perez among any those drivers.

PS, this isn't a reaction to the race. I wrote this while the forum was unavailable.

I think Jenson can be as good as anyone when he's in the zone. His problem is he seems to have no control over when he's in that zone and when he isn't.

Perez is still unproven to an extent, but he's shown flashes of genuine awesomeness this year. I think pairing him up with JB might actually be a good idea, he could learn a lot and become a much more complete driver.

I think Macca are definitely taking a chance with this driver combo, but I'll be surprised if it bombs completely. I don't think there's another de Cesaris in there personally.


(PS - The forum unavailability wasn't just happening to me then! It's driven me nuts this weekend.)

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Mclaren have 2 no2 drivers after this year its as simple as that.

In order for button to win the car has to be 100% how he likes it or he has no pace, yet again Lewis has destroyed him this weekend.

JB is just like DC, on his day no one can beat him but they dont happen to much.

As for Perez he is only any good when the tyres go his way. He just seems to throw his car at a gap and expects the other car to get out his way.

Mclaren will have the worst driver line up since 1995.

gav Wrote:
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> I think McLaren's 2013 driver line-up is going to
> be their weakest for 30 years.

And I think we have to go only back to 2006 to find more worse McLaren driver line-up and still they got decent results.

Kimi, so, Massa Fernando Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?

marcl Wrote:
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> Mclaren will have the worst driver line up since
> 1995.


A line-up that included a very quick Mika Hakkinen? Sure Blundell never amounted to much in F1, 1993 probably being his best season, but he was pretty handy in CART a few years later.

Having not been around back in the early 80s I can't quite compare Button and Perez to Watson and de Cesaris, but I would certainly agree that it is the weakest Mclaren team pairing that I've ever witnessed.

I really don't know why they didn't go for Hulk, and I seriously can't understand why he has taken a sidestep to Sauber who will be missing James Key.

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

Ferrari2007 Wrote:
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> I really don't know why they didn't go for Hulk,
> and I seriously can't understand why he has taken
> a sidestep to Sauber who will be missing James
> Key.

Well as a Hulk fan given the fact he's only signed a one year deal and Sauber's good relationship with Ferrari, I'm hoping he's being lined up to replace Massa in 2014.

But I guess one can only dream

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I don't think Button is at all a bad driver. Ok.. We're not going to rank him along with the true all time greats, Fangio, Senna, Clark, Prost etc but I do think he is too often and too easily maligned.

People focus on the negative and try to use that to justify him being in some way unworthy. But that shouldn't override the positives.

Look at it this way.. He arrived into F1 straight from F3 and was at the time the youngest driver to have scored a point. You need more than two hands to count his victories, he is a world champion, he has driven in over 200 Grand Prix and is still capable of winning, after Schumacher retires he will be the most experienced F1 driver on the grid.

Face it, Button is a excellent driver and he is worthy of his seat at McLaren and McLaren of more recent times is a team which has let the drivers down as much as the drivers have let them down.

I also don't think we can be too damning of Perez just yet... He isn't quite as crash happy as De Cesaris :p

As I said elsewhere Mclaren have take Perez for his money and vodafone and santander will be leaving them.

For the record, I'm comparing neither Button nor Perez to de Cesaris or Watson - merely that I'd argue that it's their weakest line-up since those two partnered each other at McLaren.

And yes, I know Button is an excellent driver, and I think he's a lovely bloke. But he's no Alonso - far from it.

Alonso is truly an epic driver, not many past or present are upto his level.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Perez might be capable of in a top car.

One useless piece of info here - each of the last 3 complete decades has had one top driver become the first driver from their country to win a title, and they've won them back-to-back for good measure, starting about halfway through the decade: Prost in the 80s, Schumacher in the 90s, then Alonso in the 2000s.

Could Perez be our next one?

(PS - throwaway comment - not to be taken seriously!!)

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marcl Wrote:
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> As I said elsewhere Mclaren have take Perez for
> his money and vodafone and santander will be
> leaving them.


And as I said elsewhere, Telmex are remaining at Sauber, and no official confirmation has come from Vodafone that they are leaving. So I think that's currently bullsh*t, especially as McLaren could easily just go and find another sponsor.

@EC83: If Maldonado ended up in a decent car, we could have our first Venezuelan champion as well...

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

Got to agree with you on this Gav. Just looking at the current qualifying performances of JB and Hamilton, it is clear that Hamilton can twist the car as much as he can to get the best lap time out of it and at times put it on pole. JB being in the same car and only managing a mediocre 6th. I'm not trying to rain on JB's parade as he's a great bloke and is a World Champion but there's no excitement.

Perez is still not developed as we've seen in the recent races (especially after he signed the contract with McLaren) and I just hope for Martin Whitmarsh's sake that Perez gets his act together because at the moment it seems like McLaren missed out on a great opportunity to sign up Nico Hulkenberg.

Yeah, now you mention it, Perez seems to be going out of his way to prove di Montezemolo right. We all laughed at Luca at the time, but perhaps he was warranted in his cautiousness.

I think that since he signed for Macca he's subconsciously relaxed and his driving mentality has gone to @#$%& a bit. I'm sure he'll soon sort that.

I'm also wondering, how much could his decision to sign for Macca have been influenced by what happened in Malaysia during the closing laps? I can't help feeling the two could be connected in some way.

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I think McLaren are crazy not to have looked at Maldonado over Perez.

Sure, he is feisty and rather non-traditional for the typical Mclaren mould.

But the guy IS very quick. Proven quick, to add. He has definitely matured over the course of this season, and I think a top team would really polish what is otherwise one of the grids rough diamonds.

Maldonado is an old school racer. He has that do or die attitude that you see Alonso and Lewis with. Yes, it gets him in trouble sometimes, but Mclaren don't have that in Jenson and Perez. Both seem too conservative and play the safe game.

I can't see either of them getting front row grid slots; or making frequent masterful overtakes in the races based on average races this and last season. So how can we predict great things? I just don't see it.

With a Maldonado or a Kimi, you would get that. You'd have a stonking pole sat car; or a tooth and nail fight for the win.

Perez seems too conservative and his best results are from absurd strategy scenarios. That doesn't happen often enough to warrant a championship assault imho. The same for Jenson. Unless Mclaren produce a gem of a car, I think next year they will probably be 4th/5th in the standings.

I can see Maldonado in a much better team soon enough. Possibly Lotus.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

When it was obvious Lewis was leaving, there should have been only one man on Mclarens list.

Kimi.

Why on earth they did not offer him the heavens to get him to drive their car is beyond me. He has out performed almost everyone this season after a year out. He has been upto Alonso's level of consistency. Kimi in a Mclaren was amazing.

Perez, I've said it before adn ill say it again. Ferrari had the data, had the numbers. If he was that good then they would not have let him go. Simple. Ferrari have Bianchi lined up, or Hulk. Perez IMO is nowhere near as good as Hulk, and IMO Ferrari know it.

Gav, I would agree the Mclaren lineup is not the strongest. Abu Dhabi showed what they will miss. Lewis was... epic. Button was not.

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"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL

Think it is pretty obvious why Kimi has chosen to stay at Lotus, he is happy with the team, none of the PR bullshit that he hated while at Mclaren and Ferrari.

Mclaren are certainly going to struggle in 2013, I expect them to be beaten by Lotus and even perhaps a resurgent Mercedes.

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

I think Mclaren went for Perez because they will be able to design a car that complements two rather silky smooth drivers with great tyre management. As Mercedes has shown with excessive wear, this can ruin a drivers season. I do wonder what Schumacher could have done in the Sauber instead. Hamilton will struggle in much the same way if they don't get their act together.

Whether the low Sauber tyre consumption is over-complementing Perez is another argument too.

But its a smart move by Mclaren in that respect as they can build quite an aggressive machine. But the negative is that on bad days, you will get two cars suffering the same fate. Its a bit all eggs in one basket.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it

I'll have to go against the grain again here and state that Button can overtake. Ok.. Fine I'd never put him in the mould of an Gilles Villeneuve, Mansell, Montoya or Hamilton for sheer flamboyance but people too easily forget that in 2009, his championship year Button was more often than not the executor of the vital "get in there quick" overtake, even after the Brawn's form got overtaken by the Red Bull, and to some extent the McLaren as well.

In 2011 the year the supposed epic overtaker Hamilton was busy driving into Massa, Button often (partly due to some poor qualifying) came from poor grid positions to podium results which called for overtaking on the track as much as it did in the pits... At Canada he basically fell to the back twice and still won... By overtaking cars on the track! At Monza.. When Hamilton was busy being caged by Schumacher... Button cruised up and took both of them in quick succession.

And lets not forget.. In that wonderful 3 way fight between him, Hamilton and Alonso at India... Who won track position? That's right Button.

Perez, going by his more recent form is a little too raw and inexperienced to fairly judge. Granted.. Button - Perez may not be me strongest driver pairing on the grid next year. But by no means will it be a weak one. And with a car that is likely to be at least capable of winning it'll still be one of the most successful line-ups.