Why Mercedes -schumacher duo failed

Wednesday 3 October 2012

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3 October 2012

It was down to a poor car and not the performances of Michael Schumacher that the seven-time World Champion has failed to win with Mercedes. That is according to Dieter Zetsche, the Chairman of Daimler AG and Head of Mercedes-Benz Cars.

“It is true that Michael Schumacher has not won in a Mercedes,” Zetsche explained to German publication Bild. “But we have had three years’ experience with each other, which was a lot of fun for me. Michael Schumacher has helped us grow our young team and they were three great years. Unfortunately, were have been unable to reach the top step of the podium, but it was always going to be three years from the outset.”

When directly asked whether Schumacher or the car was to blame, Zetsche replied:

Zetsche (centre) with Schumacher and Nico Rosberg
Zetsche (centre) with Schumacher and Nico Rosberg

“With both of our drivers, they have not been able to win the majority of races over the past three years. We are ahead on the engine front, but not with the chassis, so it would be totally wrong to blame Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher. Our goal now is to make the car faster”.

Discussing the decision to replace Schumacher with Lewis Hamilton, who switches from McLaren for the first time in his career, Zetsche clarified the thinking.

“The team held discussions with stakeholders on possible alternatives and decided which way we should go both medium and long-term,” he continued, adding that Schumacher could still succeed with another team. “Juan Manuel Fangio won his last championship at 46 and, with age, some skills can expand yet further.”

Hope this goes some way to bringing closure to some of the doubters ........... he says quiet clearly, not the drivers ......... but the team and car were to blame.


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

Mercedes have the problem that they can not develop the car over the course of the year as quick as others, and are then too far back starting the next season.
This was even the case with Brawn in 2009. Honda build him a great car, but they couldnt keep it great - and were overtaken by the years end.
They are not very good on their tyres either, i dont know how hamilton will manage the tyre wear, it might turn out a disaster like this 3 years with schumacher.

kubica2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mercedes have the problem that they can not
> develop the car over the course of the year as
> quick as others, and are then too far back
> starting the next season.
> This was even the case with Brawn in 2009. Honda
> build him a great car, but they couldnt keep it
> great - and were overtaken by the years end.
> They are not very good on their tyres either, i
> dont know how hamilton will manage the tyre wear,
> it might turn out a disaster like this 3 years
> with schumacher.


Tyre wear is something they've got to look at; despite all of the complaints that there are 'too many chiefs, not enough Indians', I'm sure the technical people can sort it all out.

The appointment of Niki Lauda isn't something I'm overly enthused about - especially with his failure to produce a cohesive unit at Jaguar. I think his role's a bit different at Merc though...

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

Breaking news from Suzuka is that Schuey has announced his retirement once again

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Races: 163 - Wins: 23 - Pole Positions: 24 - Fastest Laps: 22
Season 9: Constructors' Champions

^Its great news that hes going, as said before he should make way for new talent.

yep, its confirmed, schummi will retire for good at the end of the season.

Quite a nice statement from the man.

"I have decided to retire from Formula 1 at the end of the season, although I am still able to compete with the best drivers of the world. This is something that makes me proud, and this is part of why I never regretted my Comback. I can be happy with my performance and the fact that I was continuously raising my game during the last three years. But then, at some point it is time to say Good-Bye.

Already during the past weeks and months I was not sure if I would still have the motivation and energy which is necessary to go on; and it is not my style to do anything which I am not 100% convinced about. With today’s decision I feel released from those doubts. In the end, it is not my ambition to just drive around but to fight for victories; and the pleasure of driving is nourished by competitiveness.

I have said at the end of 2009 that I want to be measured by my success, and this is why I had a lot of critizism in the past 3 years which partly was justified. It is without doubt that we did not achieve our goal to develop a world championship fighting car within those 3 years. It is also without doubt that I cannot provide a long term perspective to anyone. But then it is also clear that I can still be very happy about my overall achievements in Formula 1.

In the past 6 years I have learned a lot, also about me, and I am thankful for it: for example, that you can open yourself up without losing focus. That losing can be both more difficult and more instructive than winning; something I had lost out of sight sometimes in earlier years. That you have to appreciate to be able to do what you love. That you have to live your convictions. I have opened my horizon, and I am at ease with myself.

I would like to thank Daimler, Mercedes-Benz and the Team for their trust. But I also would like to thank all my friends, partners and companions, who over many good years in motorsport supported me. But most of all I would like to thank my family for standing always by my side, giving me the freedom to live my convictions and sharing my joy."


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2012 11:00AM by danm.

Has Schumacher's stint really been a failure though?

Or are we comparing it to his dominant era at Ferrari. Well for a multitude of reasons that for was never going to be approached during this comeback.

Yet, he's lasted 3 seasons against drivers who are significantly younger than him, drivers with more untapped potential. He's by and large been on the pace, at least it's not like he was consistently seconds slower than Rosberg, but ultimately on a pace parity. Many other drivers would have probably been simply off the pace in those circumstances, some were even without the sabbatical!

He had some poor performances, some controversial moments. But that was classic Schumacher, it was more notable maybe because he this time didn't have several advantages to cover them up.

Schumacher has always been a brilliant driver, he sometimes had a significant technical advantage over others but that is part of the game. He didn't always have competition to push him but it's not his fault if his rivals didn't have the form to challenge him.

Whether you like him or not he's going to stand out is one of the most successful f1 drivers of all time. How you rate him after that is purely subjective and entirely down to you.

i think Schumachers return can be considered a failure. in both the following ways

1. if you consider his previous performances, and expect him to drive at his old standard, then it is a definite failure.

2. not considering his past, it was still very poor, other drivers would not have been given a 3rd year in a top 4 team like mercedes. his performances were often of lower midfield level, never outdriving the performance of the car (ie when the car was 4th fastest, he was going wheel to wheel with 6th fastest cars like saubers instead of racing with 3rd and 2nd fastest cars), and he often qualified poorly. he didnt make the most of the car when it was fast (start of this season).

Also compared to other superstar sports figures returning from retirement it is a definite failure. think Michael Jordan in his 2 returns to NBA basketball. when he was 40 he was still beating opposition half his age.

kubica2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i think Schumachers return can be considered a
> failure. in both the following ways
>
> 1. if you consider his previous performances, and
> expect him to drive at his old standard, then it
> is a definite failure.
>
> 2. not considering his past, it was still very
> poor, other drivers would not have been given a
> 3rd year in a top 4 team like mercedes. his
> performances were often of lower midfield level,
> never outdriving the performance of the car (ie
> when the car was 4th fastest, he was going wheel
> to wheel with 6th fastest cars like saubers
> instead of racing with 3rd and 2nd fastest cars),
> and he often qualified poorly. he didnt make the
> most of the car when it was fast (start of this
> season).
>
> Also compared to other superstar sports figures
> returning from retirement it is a definite
> failure. think Michael Jordan in his 2 returns to
> NBA basketball. when he was 40 he was still
> beating opposition half his age.

7 retirements, 5 being mechanical failure..., he was actually quite good in the begining of the year but his car broke down a lot
he was 3rd in Oz before the failure, 2nd in China, 3rd in Malaysia before Grosjean spun him out... etc.

trust me m8, he was performing way better than Nico at the beggining of the year but the car/team let him down bad, and we're talking about the most sucessfull driver in the history of the sport, is not like he's never knew success before, stuff like that takes away motivation and i'm sure he knew at that time that it was worthless to keep forcing the thing

in a world as competitive as Formula 1, where being 26 is considered "old" to debut, having 43 years old and still put performances such as Canada, Silverstone, Monaco, beat his young promising teammate (is he still promising??) i would't call it a failure at all.

i would love to see Hamilton take a Monaco pole in 2028, or Vettel in 2030

but i kinda get the idea, i mean is Schumacher who were talking about, love him or hate him, his measure bar is a few mts taller than anybody else's. you could say he's the standard



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2012 09:22PM by Slash.

Well, I would not exactly place Mercedes in the top four (in name maybe) but definitly not as far as performance is concerned.
And yes, I think most decent prospects would have been allowed a third year given that Mercedes have by thier very own admission, proclaimed to the world that the car and team performed well below par.

As for the car running in fourth, in the hands of Nico as opposed to midfield in the hands of Schumacher? .......... Aaah well, Nico could not raise pole at a circuit widely revered as the proving ground for super quick drivers.
Yes but Nico did get a race victory but then again, he never had to endure the car failures that Michael did, So who really knows what Michael could have achieved?

As for the car being fast at the begining of the season? Well that's not entirely true either. The car was certainly flattered by particular circuits and ambient tempressures but it's speed was an illusion.
As the season progressed not only was this clear for all to see but also increasingly prevelant was the inconsitancy of the chassiss which eluded to the poor management of tyre wear.

As for Schumachers over all performance, he was more than holding his own against Nico towards the end and the end is not even here yet ( still six races to go ) despite having to get used to a lot more than Nico did, he adapted surprisingly well.

All in all Schumachers come-back was a complete failure, not because of his ability but simply because he chose to come-back with Mercedes and for no other reason ............ his legacy will remain unrivaled for quiet some time and despite the fact that many may think him less than statistics suggest; History will only show that he is the most decorated formula1 driver in history to date.
As for the opinions of others ........ history will not care one 'jot!'


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2012 01:01AM by Isaint.

It's not been a failure, not from a driving perspective anyway. He's had to struggle with a slow, unreliable and generally @#$%& car, and he's still done a decent job a lot of the time with the occasional flash of brilliance. It'll bug me now wondering what he could've done if he'd been in a RedBull.

---

Failure? Not in my opinion.

He was old enough to be the father of most of the grid, had been away from F1 for 3 years and the sport had changed so much, both in characters and technically. The cars are now much more about preserving tyres, something his previous attacking style didn't play at all well with, so not only did he have to learn new cars, but he had a completely change the way he drove.

As I said before the first race in 2010, being such an old guy, he was always going to take a long time to get up to speed, but here he is, in 2012, he's had a pole in a car at the drivers track, where it really shouldn't have had a pole and he's thrashed his teammate in the races they've both finished.

It's a long way from telling the whole story of course, but if I was in his position, I'd be disappointed more hadn't been achieved, but I think I'd be pretty content with my own level of performance come the end.

And he's still the fittest guy on the grid. Which is annoying.

i can not believe that michael is leaving formula 1 !!! when he retired in 2006, i remember watching the monza gp, and then shared a tear when he said he's leaving. schuey himself was very emotional when he made the announcement. it reminded me of mika hakkinen. the situation at indianapolis where he knew this was his swan-song and became very emotional in the press conference himself.

then came 2007, a year which by watching the old season review, has apparantely been on of the most magnificent in recent history. still, i was so upset by michael leaving that i just couldnt choose anyone to root for. simply because i had to choose between:

1) alonso, who every schumacher fan disliked at that time.
2) the flying fin, who just couldnt catch my attention. neither with his driving style, nor with his uncharismatic (from my point of view) personality outside the cockpit.
3) massa, who i then thought was the reason for schuey retiring. so i couldnt support him either
4) hamilton who was simply astonishing but.... he wasnt michael.

and many years and races went by like that. then when schuey final returned to the sport he did something only a true fan can feel and understand. He gave me that warm feeling inside every race weekend. watching him drive/compete , even for lower places, never mind the situations where he was on pole of fighting in front, made me feel emotions i had forgotten. Not only in the world of motorsport... but in each sport i had watched since his retirement.

many would rate his come back as a failure. many would defend him. I just want to thank him for the fantastic memories and moments that i will savour.

mitadumapaga Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i can not believe that michael is leaving formula
> 1 !!! when he retired in 2006, i remember watching
> the monza gp, and then shared a tear when he said
> he's leaving. schuey himself was very emotional
> when he made the announcement. it reminded me of
> mika hakkinen. the situation at indianapolis where
> he knew this was his swan-song and became very
> emotional in the press conference himself.
>
> then came 2007, a year which by watching the old
> season review, has apparantely been on of the most
> magnificent in recent history. still, i was so
> upset by michael leaving that i just couldnt
> choose anyone to root for. simply because i had to
> choose between:
>
> 1) alonso, who every schumacher fan disliked at
> that time.
> 2) the flying fin, who just couldnt catch my
> attention. neither with his driving style, nor
> with his uncharismatic (from my point of view)
> personality outside the cockpit.
> 3) massa, who i then thought was the reason for
> schuey retiring. so i couldnt support him either
> 4) hamilton who was simply astonishing but.... he
> wasnt michael.
>
> and many years and races went by like that. then
> when schuey final returned to the sport he did
> something only a true fan can feel and understand.
> He gave me that warm feeling inside every race
> weekend. watching him drive/compete , even for
> lower places, never mind the situations where he
> was on pole of fighting in front, made me feel
> emotions i had forgotten. Not only in the world of
> motorsport... but in each sport i had watched
> since his retirement.
>
> many would rate his come back as a failure. many
> would defend him. I just want to thank him for the
> fantastic memories and moments that i will savour.

+1

watching him in races is very special for me too, i'm gutted he's leaving, i was hoping to see him next year for the New Jersey GP or so...

does anybody else thinks that Raikkonen being able to fight for the championship on his return played a role on this?
i mean, F1 nowadays is not about having the best car, but about having the best car and delevop it faster than others.
maybe he knows Mercedes is not able to keep the development pace of other teams and knows they'll be like that for a while?

their most competitive seasons were 2004 and 2009, and in 2004 Jenson was able to fight for podiums but only in the first few races, after that they lost pace, same as 2009, but they just were so competitive that even loosing time meant only a few places on the grid..
but these last few years have been really horrible, even with the feedback Michael has put in the car (how valuable is it?, there's no testing) they just keep falling back and back as season progresses.

maybe he just wanted to prove himself a point, he can still be competitive against these young guys, at the highest level of motorracing, but to win is just not going to be in the near future, and why go back to Ferrari?, been there done that

we all want to see him continue, but the fire that triggered the comeback has probably dissipated by Mercedes lack of progress and this guy has won so much that there's just no point in keep going just to bring home medium grid results

the ironic and funny thing is that he's been progressing without a doubt every year just like a newcomer would do , but the results are still the same.

I don't understand why people say that Nico had the edge on MS on qualifying. Going into the Japanese GP the score was 7-7.

---

It's only after we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything.

Slash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> their most competitive seasons were 2004 and 2009,
> and in 2004 Jenson was able to fight for podiums
> but only in the first few races, after that they
> lost pace

No, Button got podiums in Germany, Italy, China and Japan in the 2nd half of the season.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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GPGSL: S6 - TafuroGP Tester (14th) /// S7 - ART Tester (6th) /// S8 - Demon Driver (13th) /// S9 - Demon/Snake Driver (13th) /// S10 - Snake Driver (???) ///]
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness" - Charles Bukowski

Morbid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand why people say that Nico had
> the edge on MS on qualifying. Going into the
> Japanese GP the score was 7-7.


+1


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group

Isaint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morbid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't understand why people say that Nico had
> > the edge on MS on qualifying. Going into the
> > Japanese GP the score was 7-7.
>
>
> +1


and this in spite of schuey's problems in qualys at:

1) bahrain
2) canada
3) monaco (just in case you count that as advantage nico)


plus. you can add to that, that schuey outqualified nico particulary when the car was very fast. and thats what counts. to perform under pressure. Still though, Hats of to nico for that amazing pole at china !! hats off indeed !

lets be honest, not counting the performance of the car (top 3 at some points, top 4 at other, top 6 at others), schumacher's driving has not been the level of a 7 times world champion. it has been of a midfield driver who doesnt advance. he should at least have got several podiums, and has had many stupid incidents like in turkey and singapore. when you look at how he achieved his 7 championships, in the first 2 he was a great driver, i think at the top of his game, with traction control but.... still he was awesome. in ferrari years from 99 onwards he had the advantage over every other driver in that ferrari had an unlimited budget and unlimitted testing, and bridgestone made tyres for ferrari first and foremost - it was an 'unfare' advantage over other teams. even them, he was still an amazing driver, but by 2003 to 2006, he was not the best anymore, there were other drivers also in his league competing and beating him, even massa at the end. ofcourse in 2004 huge car advantage... he retired at a good point. why come back? with the price he was said to be paid by mercedes, it is not only a failure for him, but a failure for the sport. there are so many up and coming drivers who may not ever achieve their ambition of driving in f1, because mercedes chose to have an old "has been" over young talent. rosberg dominated schumacher in their first season. after that schumacer had a say in the car development, i remember reading heaps of articles how the car would be developed more for schumacher in 2011, and then the teams and rosbergs form went a bit backwards. i think this was the point schumacher should have retired again, or mercedes let him go. they didnt, and we have had 3 years of mercedes and schumacher not achieving.


also getting pole before penalty at monaco means little beside nostalgia, consider the other 40 or so races of not getting close to pole, and on "non driver" tracks which should be easy for someone of his experience, yet he wasb by beaten by torro rossos etc.

A great driver, with a Failed return from retirment.

Poll at Monaco is quiet significant and has nothing to do with nostalgia. The reason for this and the reason that similar results were not attained at other circuits are because Monaco is the only circuit on the calendar where the advantage of the car means far less than the ability of the driver.

As for his mistakes, admittedly some are questionable but all through the last three seasons you can count the mistakes of other drivers much younger than him and on more than one occasion.
But because it is Schumacher we automatically say he's too old.

When judging his performance it's impossible to set the car aside because then you are making unfair comparisons, also you are not or are refusing to accept the picture as a whole, including his retirements.

The term 'he doesn't perform like a seven times world Champion' is pretty ridiculous because even a seven times world champion does not win everything and indeed would be super human if he did.
On the contrary there are many things that need be taken into consideration from one campaign to the next.
Take Lewis Hamilton for example, a quick driver in a top team but since 2008 he still has not been able to capitalise on his success of 1W.D.C should we now say that he is not up to the job of winning anymore?

Schumacher did not just simply move from contesting one Championship to another, he came out of retirement after a three year lay-off to a totally alien way of competing in the sport.
To expect that he would simply get up to speed in a strange team with an inferior package not to mention completely different regulations, is to say the least, wholly unreasonable.

What he did was to prove that he was still competitive in a sport where all the elements were against him and still not be decimated by his younger team mate. However had he had the right equipment it is quite possible that we would not be having this conversation now.

All in all I believe that under the circumstances he acquitted himself quiet well and in any event, like previously mentioned this will do very little to dispel the magic of Michael Schumacher or his 7 W.D.C's


" Perfection is not a gift ....... it comes with practice."

Member of R.S.C.T Group