Are we happy with F1?

Posted by chet 
Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 18, 2012 05:11PM
Posted by: chet
It wasn't too long ago that to see an overtake in F1 was a big race changing moment. We all complained, we all demanded regulation changes and over a very, very long period they came but only seemed to make the racing worse for the most part!

We had crazy, un-thought idea's like the CDG wing, and Bernies crazy suggestions of shortcuts. Then in 2009 something pretty magical happened. The order was not just shaken up, it was turned upside down, almost literally! The previous championship were racing at the back, and the almighty Ferrari were lucky for top 6 finishes! Most importantly though, we had overtaking back.

Skip forward to 2012, we have DRS, KERS and tyres which are not only hard to call with wear and degradation but also on how quick the specifications are in relation to each other.

A few year's ago we saw top 10 grids separated by less half a second, but once the green light went out that top 10 pretty much finished as they started. Now we have the same, yet now we have a driver/team getting it wrong on tyres and losing 7 positions in as many corners (see Kimi!). But not only that, but had Button's stop gone to plan we would have an epic finish and a race between two cars on different strategies (like last year ;-))! I can't say who would have won, but if Nico crossed the line even 2-3 seconds in front, then the laps watching Jenson catch would have still been edge of the seat.

So, honestly right now there is nothing I would change about this current formula. I might want v10's back or an engine formula based on consumption (ala Group C) but that's just the kid inside me who wants a slightly different sound.

When it comes down to it, we have good racing. We have teams as close to each other as we've ever had and we have mid field cars in contention for top 6 race positions or even podiums (Sauber?).






"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 18, 2012 07:32PM
Posted by: gav
To be honest, it's just the tracks. They're rapidly all becoming as dull as ditch water. Even the better tracks. Take Spa as an example - it's now billiard-table smooth in large areas, has so much tarmac run-off that a mistake can often save you time and takes away much of the drama that happened. While the corners are still extremely good, Eau Rouge doesn't carry half as much of a challenge as it did, Blancimont is barely a corner in the dry, the iconic Bus Stop has gone and the start and finish straight could be taken from any number of Tilke circuits. They've even managed to ruin La Source.

I don't remember Interlagos being a great track by any means when it was introduced, yet now it is one of the top drivers tracks.

Monaco has been increasingly sanitised, often for no obvious reason.

I think only one of the recent tracks would have been accepted onto the calendar by the fans 10 years ago - Singapore. For me, the rest are all exactly the same and/or mind-numbingly boring. Istanbul has plenty of positives, but again, 10 or 15 years ago it would have been average at best, and it's no longer in F1 anyway.

Other than that, I think it's just Bernie being an increasing pain as the years go by, DRS being too effective (and the officials looking it make it more effective, with their double-DRS zones, and I still don't think it's necessary at all if we have high tyre derogation) and the trend Pirelli have of making their tyres a little more durable (I massively enjoyed the manic nature of some of the earlier races of 2011, even if some fans might have complained it was hard to follow). Other than the tracks, which I really hate, I think I'm being rather picky, as I'd have accepted the current standard with open arms in the mid 2000s, with one car way out ahead and one driver winning five championships in a row.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2012 07:36PM by gav.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 18, 2012 08:15PM
Posted by: Slash
isn't this similar to the "Pet Hates!" thread?

anyway, i'm happy, i do agree with both posts above but it'll be hard to make it perfect.

i wish it was early 00's with those V-10 and the Pirelli tyres with their high degradation "feature". but yeah nowadays if only they remove the DRS and make Tyres with high degradation it'll be enough.
however i do found interesting that in China the DRS was not as effective as i tought it would be, i mean during the race i remember seeing Hamilton getting close to some cars in front "not close enough to warranty slipstream without DRS" but sure close enough were i tought with the DRS he would fly past before the braking area, and sometimes he couldn't. i think it was behind Kimi. could be a setup thing with Lewis as we saw in Monza but still just to point out i didn't saw the DRS as effective there.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 18, 2012 09:15PM
Posted by: mitadumapaga
there are many thing I love about the new formula 1 and probably 2-3 things I don't value that much. These are:

1) The huuge safety zones in the tracks nowadays just drive me crazy. Not gonna explain everything in detail about it, i assume you get me.

2) Everything is super standardized. all the stupid limjitations of only 2 cars pers race for a team. 1 gearbox has to last 5 races, 1 engine 4 races etc. etc.... I would love to see each team giving it his best shot at what they can produce, innovate and apply to racing. I would love to have V 8's v 10's and V 12 engine powered cars.

3) Dropping legendary races such as Imola, Spa (which will be alternated with paul ricard) and plenty others (buenos aires, estoril.)

Bottom line, less limitations, more diversity. Less new tracks, more tracks full with history.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 18, 2012 11:11PM
Posted by: J i m
Personally I think think the gearboxes and engines lasting longer and also the future generation of engines is a good thing. Because there's more chance of the technology and processes filtering down into actual road car technology.

I know we all loved massive v12 and v10 engines and on the face of it a heavily KERS reliant turbo v6 sounds very un f1, but the pace and scope of development F1 will apply to it will make it exciting whilst it will also be infinitely more useful to filtering down technology to us mere mortals.

Although the base essence of F1 has always been "qualify on pole and bugger off as far into the distance as you can" it's still always evolved from year to year and frankly what we have now is as good as F1 has ever been inspite of the so called Tilkedromes. We have perhaps the most closely comparable drivers in terms of talent and competitiveness we've ever had... With six world champions now with realistic hopes of still winning races. We have interesting strategic races and we have overtaking.

I honesty think it would be better to improve on the actual racing aspect, the show aspect still lags behind a bit... As in the race tickets are prohibitively expensive and the teams remained a bit closed although many are starting to embrace social networking and opening up a bit more.

Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 12:05AM
Posted by: loren
For me there are a lot of things wrong:

1. It's no longer a fair sporting competition, with things like the DRS, KERS, obligation to use different tires, penalties for changing parts, etc etc. The same rules should apply to everyone at all times.
2. The new tracks suck. F1 has allowed itself to be bought by the Middle East, which is a terrible place for road course. And Tilke's terrible designs don't help.
3. The formula has become far too restrictive, especially from a mechanical side. Engine design has been taken almost completely out of the equation. And innovative mechanical systems like the mass damper get banned for no reason. Yet the teams are allowed to go crazy with aerodynamic designs like the F-duct and double diffuser which were totally against the intent of the way the regulations were written.
4. Finally, the cars just look silly. An F1 car should not be narrower than an F3 car.

10-12 years ago I would watch every race, a good many of them live at 5am. Honestly if they fixed #1 and went back to the sporting regs from that era, I probably still would. But now I really cannot take F1 seriously as a sport.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 05:12AM
Posted by: Frantic
F1 has too many rules today, and some of them I think are just nonsense, like having only 1 tyre provider. having 2 or more tyre brands make the sport a little more unpredictable as there would be some tyres that would adapt better to a certain type of track and that could bring unexpected victories... another problem is the mechanical restrictions: today the cars are way too reliable. Last race only MS retired and it wasnt for a mechanical problem. not so long ago it wasnt strange that no more than only 12 or 13 cars finished the race, and in the turbo era only 5 or 6 cars finished sometimes... you have to take care of your car if you wanted it to finish.
other thing is the tracks. FIA made a great work in terms of safety with Tilke but the circuits are emotionless. and i dont think it is all Tilke´s fault...

and the main problem is today´s car aerodynamics + DRS + stupid overtaking rules. with the car perfomance almost totally based in the aerodynamics, and the engineers have all those restrictions in the shaping of the car. that made the teams put the development focus in the diffussers, exhaust and all those things for generate more downforce. as the cars leave dirty air behind them, the driver behind cant be nearer that almost half a second because his car would turn undriveable and much slower, and thats because we have this lack of real overtakings (DRS doesent count).

and a little fanciful of me ;) i would go back to the old numbering system, to give the teams a little more identity (like Ferrari had with 27 and 28, Lotus with 5 and 6 in the 70s and 11 and 12 in the 80s, Tyrrell with 3 and 4, etc.)

Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 08:22AM
Posted by: Dahie
loren schrieb:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me there are a lot of things wrong:
>
> 1. It's no longer a fair sporting competition,
> with things like the DRS, KERS, obligation to use
> different tires, penalties for changing parts, etc
> etc. The same rules should apply to everyone at
> all times.
[…]

The same rules DO apply. They may be a bit artificial, but they apply to everyone and it's the teams decision if they use everything the rules offer them (KERS) or not.
Yes, it's artificial and F1 is not the only sport to provide rules that make the sport more interesting by actually distorting "true" performance. Especially for restrictive rules it's the aspect that makes the sport interesting: not touching balls in football.

> and a little fanciful of me i would go back to the
> old numbering system, to give the teams a little
> more identity (like Ferrari had with 27 and 28,
> Lotus with 5 and 6 in the 70s and 11 and 12 in
> the 80s, Tyrrell with 3 and 4, etc.)

Since this wish pops up all the time somewhere, let me refer you to this article: Numbers nostalgia.
Summary in one sentence: Ferrari wouldn't have had 27/28 since 1995.

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Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 10:47AM
Posted by: Toki
I take it short

I'm not Happy, and it's getting worse every year. We need a new Boss in F1, a boss who knows how to combine past with modern Formula 1.

Bernie want's Yellow and Red Cards, medals, GRAND SLAM Races *Bernies new Idea* i mean WTF. This is not Soccer, Olympia or Tennis :-( to Hell with you Bernie ;-(.

What's next

F1 as a World Cup (No Privat Teams) 15 Teams *3 cars*, 15 Nations? 25 Races (15 Based on the Nations, 5 Night Races, 5 Grand Slam Races) *All Tilke*? Chassis from Volkswagen for every team? Turbo Engines from Renault?

The Real Story of the Race was that the Renault's fell apart and the Ferrari's didn't.
Rosberg headed for the sliproad and retired, probably because of Nicotin starvation they have still not given him a helmet with a little hole in it.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 02:37PM
Posted by: danm
I think 2012 has produced races that are very watchable.

I often switch off halfway through some races, and it becomes background entertainment from about the 20th lap until the final 10 or so.

This season I have been on edge for every lap of every race.

Pirelli have a lot to thank for that, I feel.

The biggest thing I would take out is the run-off zones and silky smooth finishes that have ruined every track.

I agree that safety is important, but there seems to be a silly situation where genuine skilled drivers who drive immaculately are matched by drivers frequently going off the edge and unpunished. I am not saying if they touch the kerb they should be off like the ridiculous F12011 pc game. More that drivers should somehow get caught out if they do wrong.

Then again races would get boring, as if one off ruined their race, we wouldn't see epic comebacks so easily.

I retract my statement!

I'd also add metal strips to the car undersides so we see aesthetic sparks when the cars bounce around. And Ferrari should be forced to have black endplates.

Oh, and finally, I'd simplify the branding and sponsorship of driver helmets. Helmets should perhaps only feature branding on the visor. Everything else should retain driver identity.


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 04:35PM
Posted by: chet
On metal strips and Ferrari's endplates, agreed!

As for run-offs. We will say different things here, I think we'll agree there needs to be a change, but some people will want more change than others. I for instance like what we have now, if it changed then okay, ill be happy but if not I wont mind. One corner I would change in a hearbeat is Pouhon. With the tarmac run off, for me the challenge was been lost completely. But then as Gav mentions Monaco, well I like the changes made, Monaco is still Monaco and we still have incidents involving the wall but now for me its a lot more race-able. A move into Ste Devote is less of a risk IMO and that will only encourage racing.

New tracks aren't great to race, but the people in power don't care. The new track's have followed similar architecture of newer buildings too. Now when we have a new track how much talk has been said of the layout relative to the "facilities"? not alot! China's facilities are no doubt the best in F1 right now, but go to Imola or Brazil and you will be cramped, with no room to work. What will the guys in the garage prefer? A track which is fun to drive (considering they dont drive!) or a track which not only provides good racing but provides them with comfort and generally better working conditions. In the end, all matters is who crosses the line first. It doesn't matter whether that line be banked, and on a hill, preceded by a series of 5g S-bends.

It's all tricky to assess, but I think what we have to think is that this kind of process has happened since the beginnings of racing, and maybe there always has been those who keep an eye on the past. In 15 years time we'll have different tracks I guess, and different car's and maybe even a different qualifying and race system. In 15 years will we hope for what we have now?

In my OP I didn't get across that since maybe last season I have been entirely satisfied with the sport and for the first time did not want to be racing in a different era.

But what I love most about modern F1... Reliability. Jim said it well too but for me it's about knowing the car's will likely finish! As a Mika fan, whenever he was leading it was always a question of when will the car fail.






"Trulli was slowing down like he wanted to have a picnic" LOL
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 07:21PM
Posted by: Nickv
I had my reservations on DRS, but it seems the FIA is trying to decrease its influence with shorter zones, which is good IMO.

Bernie gets too much criticism (which I'm sure he personally couldn't care less about). This is mainly due to people who have no idea what his role in F1 is and don't know his ways of thinking. First: he has no power in rule making. He's there to make money. That's his only goal. If he sees that something doesn't work (take the point system for example), he'll make up some ridicoulous system because he knows that people who know their stuff will come up with better ideas. Bernie is no dummy. He knows that his system will never make it and I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it to. If he proposes the random rain on tracks to improve overtaking, within a day some technician will come with a good, feasible plan of overtaking, because some offended, simpleton journalist will ask him his opinions on Bernies plan. Effect: more overtaking, more viewers, more money, which is what Bernie wants.

New countries? Bernie doesn't care where the races are held, as long as the circuits pay up. There are only 20 places on the calendar while there are much more circuits who want a race. This leads to circuits effectively bidding up to eachother. Bernie is here to promote F1 all over the world and make money from it (especially the latter, let's be honest). And yes, he does take a large sum of the profit himself and yes, many of the tracks are boring. But it's his way of hinting to the 'classic' circuits to keep their act together in order to keep F1 the pinnacle of motorsport. Just look at how quickly Silverstone had their revamp plans ready when they were thrown off the calendar, the same goes for the years Spa was thrown off. Get your act together, or you're out. It's debatable on to what extent this should be done, since F1 really does need Spa, Monza, Silverstone and the like. However, a race on a yearly deficit or a race on a track with crappy facilities isn't sustainable for F1, both on the financial side as on the image side (which largely overlaps with the financial side).

Just imagine F1 without Bernie. There are three options: the teams will do everything themselves, which would end up a joke and a failure. The FIA would do it: can you name a bureaucratic organization with a business mindset? Me neither. A 'new' Bernie would be introduced: effects unknown. Really, Bernie is the best we have at the moment.

Then there are the people longing to the 80s and so on. Was the racing closer? No not really. Pick some random F1 races from those eras and see the gaps after lap one. Also have a look at how many cars finished within a lap of the leader. The only reason there were many more freak results and podium finishers was the low reliability. We have high reliability now and close racing, which is what we all want. Seriously, F1 is better than ever now.

On the whole, I'm pretty satisfied with the way F1 is run.

This should've been in the pet hates thread, but what are you gonna do?
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 19, 2012 07:31PM
Posted by: danm
For all he is worth, Bernie doesn't really lap up the lavish lifestyle does he? For all that he could be, all his power at hat, he is extremely harmless.

You see someone win £5million and turn into something else.

Bernie could bugger off in an instant, but at his age, regardless, he is still doing his job quite proficiently.

Credit where it is due folks!


Jenson drives it like he owns it; Lewis drives it like he stole it
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 20, 2012 07:45PM
Posted by: Anonymous User
I agree with OP - formula is very open and is exciting to watch.

Circuits and reliability are an issue though.


Hmmm.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 21, 2012 02:26PM
Posted by: loren
Dahie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The same rules DO apply. They may be a bit
> artificial, but they apply to everyone and it's
> the teams decision if they use everything the
> rules offer them (KERS) or not.
> Yes, it's artificial and F1 is not the only sport
> to provide rules that make the sport more
> interesting by actually distorting "true"
> performance. Especially for restrictive rules it's
> the aspect that makes the sport interesting: not
> touching balls in football.
>


But the same rules don't apply at all times, which is what bothers me.

Before 2003, the rules simply said: The car must meet the technical regulations at all times. Now you can have a car which meets all the technical regulations and still get penalized, because you've replaced one part with another, otherwise perfectly legal part?

KERS? You can have it on your car, but only use it for X percent of every lap? Something should be either legal or illegal, not legal part of the time.

DRS is by far the worst though. One car can use it and its opponent can't? Should a football team automatically get a penalty because it's behind? You say other sports have rules that distort true performance to make them more exciting, but I'm having trouble thinking up anything as downright unfair as this. Possibly the way a basketball team is allowed to intentionally foul the other team (curiously without getting called for an intentional foul) to get the ball back at the end of a game, though that still depends on the other team missing its free throws.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 22, 2012 07:51PM
Posted by: EC83
I'm much happier with it now than I was in the years before 2009, when it had seemed to be in a dire state with no obvious way of recovering. At least the regulations changes in the last 4 years have changed that.



Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 24, 2012 01:04AM
Posted by: Anonymous User
EC83 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm much happier with it now than I was in the
> years before 2009, when it had seemed to be in a
> dire state with no obvious way of recovering. At
> least the regulations changes in the last 4 years
> have changed that.

I have to disagree with you really I think the dire state ended which Schumi stopped winning titles... nothing against the bloke but it was his dominance which wrecked it.

I REALLY enjoyed Kubica's title charge in 08', watching Mclaren implode in '07 and seeing the whole Brawn thing happen in '09, although granted the latter WAS due to reg changes.

For me the years from 2000 - 2004 were appallingly boring aside from Montoya, even when Alonso was starting to win - not much else was worth watching. Ironically, it seems to coincide with Hamilton's arrival but I think that's just a coincidence.
Re: Are we happy with F1?
Date: April 24, 2012 02:46AM
Posted by: torana_05
im pretty happy with f1 nowadays. DRS on certain circuits was pretty bad last year eg china, turkey but this year they seem to have got it a bit better. I think it was a bit easy in bahrain this time around tho. I think the tyres should last a little longer but not like they were in pre 2010 where you could almost do an entire race with one set. Going back to two tyre manufactors like in 01,02,03 was good but 04,05,06 was terrible as bridgestone just focussed on one car and the rest went to michelin, and then basically both making a super reliable tyre which then didnt make a difference really. The show has improved compared to pre 09 as before we had races were we had many different winners but they were not quality races whereas this yr we have quality races with different winners even on what is considered boring tilke tracks. As stated in the posts above and i think many people agree that relaibility is a big issue but thats just the world we live in now, everything is tested millions of times so it doesnt break, and everything is computerised. A few small things i would bring back to decrase reliability: No electronic fuel metres only 1 analogue dial in the car for the driver to manage and Manual H-pattern gearbox. Maybe you could have differnt engines sizes eg v8s,v10s,v12s but to decrease pollution use an ethenol blend or methanol, rev limits could also be a thing of the past but that would increase spenditure, but may decrease reliability. If you open up the regs too much the teams with money will be ahead of everyone by miles again. Look at Ferraris budget compared to Renault or Saubers compared to Mercedes The little teams now are closer than ever and are getting a look even without bigger teams failing to finish. There are too many run offs aswell sand traps should be bought back. they are creating too much confusion with overtaking ala Hamilton on Raikkonen 07 and people just using them as an escape for a badly planned move or a mistake, you should be punished further for it remember we are supposed to have the pinnacle of drivers racing in f1. I think just a few tweaks to what we have now and it would be better. Im a big fan of old f1 but that was then and it was great then, this is now and what we have is good for now, comparing old f1 and new f1 is like apples and oranges


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